Hillbillies Need No Elegy • Hacker News Board

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#91

Post by mud_dauber » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #14

temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #2

These sorts of elaborate rebuttals, like the article or the art project it references, aren't that different from the works of outsiders that they seek to prove wrong. It seemingly is the case that Appalachia attracts a kind of journalist-meets-artist who finds plenty of material for a culture-tinged exposé of somewhat-thoughtful poverty and hardship porn, but a curated photoset of Sides of Appalachia You May Not Kno…

> life there is pretty normal for rural America I've lived in Appalachia my entire life (West Virginia, Georgia, Pennsylvania, and New York). Although I can't generalize about the people of either the Midwest or Appalachia, there are some big differences between rural Appalachia and some other rural places. 1) Landscape. Due to the difficulty of building roads, some Appalachian places (closer to WV and KY) were extre…

Grew up in WV and return all the time to visit family. This is 100% true. I have vivid childhood memories of being on my grandfather's tractor on a hillside & being terrified that the contraption would roll over.

(He also occasionally herded his cattle by sticking his head through the roof of an ancient VW Beetle. But that's another story.)

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#92

Post by sudosteph » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #81

sudosteph wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senators were just to make a comparison point against other rural areas (considering that the Senate is the place most rural places are over-represented). The same division though also ensures that, unlike Californians, Appalachians have relatively little voice in the electoral vote or for governor-level positions as well because WV is their only majority state.

A senator does you no good if your primary governmental irritant is the state government which for most rural areas is the case. The federal government generally doesn't do anything to egregious to rural areas (maybe because most federal policy mostly doesn't affect people's day to day lives or maybe because of those senators doing their jobs?) but the state governments generally have a problem with major cities enac…

Federally-funded farm subsidies are a huge deal to rural people in Midwest. Those are largely possible because mostly rural states like Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, and the Dakotas have senators who strongly advocate for those deals.

Appalachians don't have the type of land that benefits from those subsidies, and they don't have enough clout to get an equivalent type of economic benefit package. The TVA was the last major economic project the feds funded, and it was hugely popular because it did actually improve the lives of people there. Better federal representation at the Senate level wouldn't solve every problem, but it could definitely alleviate some of the pain.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#93

Post by jcburns » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

jessaustin wrote: post #77

camelite wrote: post #68

It's really bizarre the lengths to which the author goes to weave the "criticism by outsiders" motif into a critique which ostensibly targets a born-and-bred Appalacian. Three full introductory paragraphs about the guy who says “The thing I like about Appalachians is that they don’t need much to be happy. They’re content with making $24,000 year. They’re not showing off...” A massive full-screen width "When outsiders…

But the force and worth of Vance's take would be ZERO if he was an outsider. JD Vance was born and raised in Middletown OH. This is far SW Ohio, on the border with Indiana. (It was something of a surprise to me that any part of Ohio is considered Appalachian, but then I've spent most of my Ohio time in Toledo. [0]) There are hills, but those hills are not the Appalachians. JD Vance is from the Midwest. Has he actuall…

The southeastern portion of the state has (in what I’ve read) traditionally been considered part of Appalachia. Geophysically, it’s simple: the one-third or so of Ohio that wasn’t flattened by the glaciers. It’s rolling, increasingly hilly as you get down to the Ohio River. I went to school at Ohio University in Athens, and a bunch of classes there consider Appalachia a part of their studies and focus. I read Hillbilly Elegy when it came out and my first reaction was “hey, wait, Middletown is really more blue collar, rust belt.” My second reaction is “boy, Vance sure is willing to speak for a huge geographic area that he’s at best only on the edge of.” But to the Bitter Southerner piece, I want to say that the whole “you have to be from a place to talk about a place” thesis has, for me, been as wobbly as anything Vance puts out. So, what, born there? And the deeper inside the geographic boundaries, the better? Nah. But maybe the author (of the Bitter piece) makes a stronger point that ANY generalization of people tied to a geographic area is weak, shallow, insufficient by definition. People will surprise you. (That’s my generalization.)

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#94

Post by sebular » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

huffmsa wrote: post #44

> The room was packed with intellectuals, artists, donors, students, the president of West Virginia University and the dean of its law school. Nary a coal miner, nor axeman to be found in this ivory tower meeting.

Yeah, that was the point of the sentence. A man who wasn't Appalachian was telling a room full of educated Appalachian intellectuals that Appalachians are happy making 24k a year because they don't "need to show off".

Also, it wasn't an "ivory tower" (such a limp, worn-out descriptor) meeting, it was a book launch, and it was literally open to the public.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#95

Post by Mvandenbergh » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:45 PM UTC

evultrole wrote: post #83

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CEFR is intended to measure the proficiency of foreign language learners and not measure the sophistication of native language speakers. Everyone that speaks English as a first language would pass a C2 level examination very easily. The standard ways to measure text complexity in English for native speakers are the Flesch-Kincaid readability and grade level tests. These depend on the length of words and on the nu…

There are a lot of problems with the way you approach this. 19% of Americans cannot read well enough to fill out a job application correctly. The organization for economic cooperation and development found that 50% of U.S. adults can't read a book written at an 8th grade level, which is a statistic which obviously requires the estimate of "average American reading at a 7th or 8th grade level" be questioned heavily. I…

Well, I'll admit to not being an expert on the American school system with which I only had a few years of contact. If that really is the case, that grade level of reading ability and number of grades completed is not linked then that is certainly an indictment of the American system of education. I'm happy to amend my claim that 10th graders can read the New Yorker to say that by American academic standards, they should be able to but often are not.

It doesn't change the fact that the CEFR framework is not intended either to measure native proficiency nor to assess the difficulty of a written text.

I'm not disputing that the New Yorker is written at a higher level than the average American cares to read, just disputing the use of CEFR framework to assess the text.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#96

Post by magduf » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:48 PM UTC

humanrebar wrote: post #64

throw0101a wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Poverty is what it is and it does what it does to people. You either get out of it or it eats you. Perhaps the people with the compulsion to leave have already done so? Kind of what is being call "The Big Sort", where (politically) like-minded people seem to be congregating to the same neighborhoods: * https://www.citylab.com/equity/2016/10/the-big-sort-revisite... * https://www.economist.com/united-states/2008/06/…

This is my take. For all the talk of international brain drain, we don't have a narrative for the more local equivalent. Similarly, we worry about disrupting natural biomes through deforestation or overfishing, but we don't think about sustainability applied to human communities, with a few exceptions (reservations get some attention, though not sufficient attention). What do we do? For one, I don't think it's hard t…

More remote work isn't going to make a significant number of people want to stay in these uneducated, economically-depressed locales. They aren't just leaving for the work, they're leaving to get away from the local culture.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#97

Post by ubertaco » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 3:01 PM UTC

psychometry wrote: post #71

[flagged]

That you went with an angry post about Donald Trump on an article that doesn't mention him once (or mention politics much at all, really) is telling. Your stereotypes are showing.

Perhaps read through the article, rather than jumping at a headline? You might come away with the impression that it could be worthwhile to meet "these unwashed masses" and find out that they're people too, with just as valid a viewpoint as yours (regardless of whether you agree with it).

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#98

Post by sudosteph » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

magduf wrote: post #96

humanrebar wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my take. For all the talk of international brain drain, we don't have a narrative for the more local equivalent. Similarly, we worry about disrupting natural biomes through deforestation or overfishing, but we don't think about sustainability applied to human communities, with a few exceptions (reservations get some attention, though not sufficient attention). What do we do? For one, I don't think it's hard t…

More remote work isn't going to make a significant number of people want to stay in these uneducated, economically-depressed locales. They aren't just leaving for the work, they're leaving to get away from the local culture.

There are generally some more educated pockets within these regions that are actually quite desirable, but lack economic development. These spots, like Asheville NC (the place I ultimately would like to settle down in) are unfortunately quite expensive due to low housing supply and people from out-of-state moving in. But I've got a remote gig now, so I just need to save up more. Personally, I will be happy to be part of a culture that values friendliness, ingenuity, sweet tea and banjo music.

Fwiw, I tried moving away to Seattle, but despite my educational attainment and liberal leanings, I found that I just prefer NC. There's something to be said for living somewhere you don't feel like an outsider. After 5 years in Seattle, I still couldn't lose that feeling.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#99

Post by csa » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #41

csa wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New Yorker is a classic example of higher level English that is far above the level of “random comments on the internet”. The typical New Yorker article is CEFRL C2 [1] or ILR 3/3+ [2]. Most internet comments are at CEFRL A2 or so, with some (often faulty) more thoughtful responses at B1 or B2. Said another way, your median high schooler can read and understand a typical internet comment, but the median high scho…

The CEFR is intended to measure the proficiency of foreign language learners and not measure the sophistication of native language speakers. Everyone that speaks English as a first language would pass a C2 level examination very easily. The standard ways to measure text complexity in English for native speakers are the Flesch-Kincaid readability and grade level tests. These depend on the length of words and on the nu…

> The CEFR is intended to measure the proficiency of foreign language learners and not measure the sophistication of native language speakers.

You’re right about this, but these are the systems I know, and they are arguably more useful in this context that most of the grade-level models you listed (very abstract, and most folks don’t really understand the level they are based on).

> Everyone that speaks English as a first language would pass a C2 level examination very easily.

C2 is the equivalent of a highly educated native speaker. This does not describe most Americans, even ones with seemingly appropriate credentials.

A discussion I’ve heard about native speakers of English expected to pass a C1 test in a foreign language: “Can they pass C1 in English?” The answer was not always so clear.

> In other words this text can be read by average American 10th graders without difficulty.

These are more like ideal goals for a high-performing Xth grader. I have worked with the vocab lists that textbooks writers are supposed to use — the expectations are very high.

Anyway, thank you for your response.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#100

Post by harimau777 » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 5:17 PM UTC

I understand where the author is coming from with wanting to depict a more diverse/nuanced view of Appalachia.

However, I think that Hillbilly Elegy has been influential based specifically on insight it gives into why the region supported someone like Trump. The author may be correct that Hillbilly Elegy is incorrect; however, since the article doesn't present an alternative explanation I'm not sure that it is very useful.