What goes around, comes around. Stealing code is on Microsoft records, as a simple "Microsoft admits stealing code" search shows. One can only wonder how much code the company stole that did not come to public knowledge. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2522017/microsoft-admi...
Also many of the .wav files in Windows 98SE were edited with a pirated version of Sony's Soundforge, the metadata in the media files contained the Soundforge cracker's name.
A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
51–60 of 291 posts
Re: A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
#52It would be interesting to see this engineer's statements tested in court. Microsoft are highly motivated to protect their source code so there would have to be a reason why they haven't. ReactOS is definitely NOT a mosquito to an elephant in violation terms if this engineers comments have validity. I'm thinking patents, copyrights etc. The fact that Microsoft haven't acted for all this time is by itself evidence tha…
I find the attitude more interesting.. on one side we have Linux embedded in Windows, more Linux VMs on Azure than Windows Server, MS employees proudly brandishing shirts with 'I heart Linux' and 'I heart OSS' and on the other side we have Windows Kernal developers saying their ideas were stolen. Maybe it's a sign of the relationship between Azure and Windows teams?
Like dude is talking about "there is absolutely no way on earth this was written from a clean sheet only from the available public documentation.", but that's not the bar for reverse engineering systems. It is legal (if you do it right anyways) to examine, use, and disassemble software in the process of reverse engineering.
Re: A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the United States, clean room reverse engineering is legal for interoperability purposes. In general reverse engineering is legal unless there is a contract involved prohibiting it. Unless you’re reusing the original source code, there’s no copyright violation per se, simply functionality reimplemented in a compatible manner. The lengths that ReactOS goes to might actually be overkill, but no one can credibly clai…
Does a software license in this case count as a contract? Moreover, interoperability is not the same as distribution no? Honestly ReactOS's lengths do not seem like overkill to me, quite the contrary. Even re-implementing an API is legally suspect these days (see: Oracle vs. Google re: Android). Copying the internals of a piece of software by having one person explain verbally exactly how it works to another person w…
That said, look at the steps involved.
Person A had the original software in binary form, runs it through a decompiler. The decompiler is not going to reproduce the code precisely, but it will be enough for documentation purposes. They document the functionality in a separate document describing what is happening when the software is run.
Person B receives this document and writes their own code according to what it says. They need not have ever even used the original software or signed a EULA, and then Person A or C or whoever can go on to test compatibility. It is a lot of effort, but the end result is code where no one involved violates any laws. It’s interoperable, and because the code is original, Person B or the Project he works for can claim copyright and license it out on their own terms, in the case of ReactOS, it is an open source license.
Re: Oracle vs Google, this case does make the whole project potentially suspect these days, but if APIs are not copyrightable, then ReactOS should be firmly on the right side of the law. If APIs are copyrightable, then we can expect the Wine project to be taken down alongside ReactOS. More reason to hope Google prevails entirely, regardless of our own personal opinions of them.
Re: A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find the attitude more interesting.. on one side we have Linux embedded in Windows, more Linux VMs on Azure than Windows Server, MS employees proudly brandishing shirts with 'I heart Linux' and 'I heart OSS' and on the other side we have Windows Kernal developers saying their ideas were stolen. Maybe it's a sign of the relationship between Azure and Windows teams?
The comment is from one dude in late 2017 - it probably doesn't mean shit. Like dude is talking about "there is absolutely no way on earth this was written from a clean sheet only from the available public documentation.", but that's not the bar for reverse engineering systems. It is legal (if you do it right anyways) to examine, use, and disassemble software in the process of reverse engineering.
Re: A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was curious, and since the author of this answer provided links to what they called leaks [1], it's not difficult to download both the leak and ReactOS source [2] and look for similarities. So, out of curiosity, that's what I did. I started poking at some source files at random in ntoskernel, and it only took a minute to get some "hits" from the ReactOS source: $ rg InitializeContextThread ./ntoskrnl/ke/thrdobj.c:8…
I do not wish to view the leaked copies of Windows source code, unfortunately. It does have potential legal ramifications, in the United States. If someone who doesn't care can attempt to audit it, that would be absolutely great. That said, KiInitializeContextThread isn't 'secret' enough to not appear, it is a well-known bit of internals. Here you can find some docs about it on Microsoft's own website, albeit I have…
Re: A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
#56In 2006 ReactOS halted all developments because of accusations like this. After a year long effort there was found to be no use of Microsoft source code in ReactOS. ( https://www.reactos.org/reset-reboot-restart-legal-issues-an... ) From what I understand a lot of the kernel work was done by clean-room reverse engineering. One person decompiles and documents the system and another re-implements given the documentatio…
Reverse engineering is usually considered a violation of proprietary software IP right (not sure the exact legal term)? I know at every company I've ever worked at I've been told to never under any circumstances attempt to decompile or reverse engineer another company's proprietary software product. Maybe that's just legal CYA but decompiling+documenting then re-implementing sure sounds like stealing to me...
Companies mostly have these rules to guard against copyright and patent lawsuits because there is no presumption of innocence beyond reasonable doubt in these in the US.
Re: A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
#57In 2006 ReactOS halted all developments because of accusations like this. After a year long effort there was found to be no use of Microsoft source code in ReactOS. ( https://www.reactos.org/reset-reboot-restart-legal-issues-an... ) From what I understand a lot of the kernel work was done by clean-room reverse engineering. One person decompiles and documents the system and another re-implements given the documentatio…
Is that really clean-room, though? (Note that "clean-room" is not a term in US copyright law, it's just a technique that certain people hope results in a work that is not a derivative of whatever they're reimplementing.) If I learn a pop song, and sing it and accompany myself on the piano, and someone else transcribes it, then two things are true: first, of course it will result in identical melodies and chord progre…
> Is that really clean-room, though?
That is precisely the technique that Compaq used to reverse engineer the IBM PC BIOS. I'm sure it can be done in a legally risky way, but the fundamental technique has been quite well tested, legally speaking.
Re: A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
#58The researcher is unable to name any data structure in the source file. If -- as he claims -- it's littered with them, this should be easy to prove. His shock that this could be a clean room implementation would be meaningful, except that the WINE project has successfully clean-room reverse engineered much of the Win32 API (including private stuff) by observing how programs use them. Literally no one wants to read Mi…
Just a tip - if you want to make statements and have people take you seriously, stick to facts and don't add stupid things like: > Literally no one wants to read Microsoft code anyway; knowing them, it's probably horrendous. This added NOTHING to your previous statement, and only served to make me think your acting as a troll and actually worked against everything else you had previously said.
Re: A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
#59ReactOS underwent a big audit years ago because people kept saying things like this, and AFAIK it's over and nothing exciting turned up. [1] - https://reactos.org/wiki/Audit
Update: my original comment was refering to the author's original answer, which didn't give a single symbol name. But apparently, the author registered an HN comment and start giving more details than what has been said in the original answer, I need to stick to the facts so I'd say the credibility of the accusation is no longer 100% "baseless". Let's see what is going to be the evidence.
Re: A Kernel Engineer at Microsoft's Answer to “What Do You Think about ReactOS?”
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find the attitude more interesting.. on one side we have Linux embedded in Windows, more Linux VMs on Azure than Windows Server, MS employees proudly brandishing shirts with 'I heart Linux' and 'I heart OSS' and on the other side we have Windows Kernal developers saying their ideas were stolen. Maybe it's a sign of the relationship between Azure and Windows teams?
The comment is from one dude in late 2017 - it probably doesn't mean shit. Like dude is talking about "there is absolutely no way on earth this was written from a clean sheet only from the available public documentation.", but that's not the bar for reverse engineering systems. It is legal (if you do it right anyways) to examine, use, and disassemble software in the process of reverse engineering.