Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#301

Post by throweipi » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 12:02 AM UTC

igravious wrote: post #296

elefanten wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What definition of "police state" are you using? How do all the things you acknowledge in your third paragraph not make China a police state? It's effectively totalitarian, special economic zones aside. We've seen what happens if they try to stir the pot politically. Their relative "freedom" is exercised with a guillotine permanently above their heads and no legal rights. Everyone is surveilled across every arena of…

I think a state can be all the things I said that China is and still not be a police state. All the online articles referencing China being a police state that I can find talk about the extreme measures in that one "autonomous" region of Xinxiang specifically. Do an internet search for yourself and see. Can't freedoms in China be pretty terrible in many respects without it being equated with the worst regimes ever?

>I think a state can be all the things I said that China is and still not be a police state. All the online articles referencing China being a police state that I can find talk about the extreme measures in that one "autonomous" region of Xinxiang specifically. Do an internet search for yourself and see.

I think where you wrote that, you thought it goes without saying "Do an internet search for yourself (from outside China, or at least via VPN) and see."

I don't want to add to your words, but that's what you meant, right? You obviously didn't mean they should search within China without a VPN, even outside the province you highlight.

But if that goes without saying, if it's what you meant, then why?

By the way excuse me if I am putting words in your mouth.

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#302

Post by rolltiide » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 12:08 AM UTC

d1zzy wrote: post #299

rolltiide wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL China does it to protect their people from people that want to undermine and dismantle the party This is true! This is exactly what we want to happen! These are security reasons from their perspective Can you see how that is not so different? In the US we are as oblivious to the exact nature and motives of security threats too, and tolerate our border and surveillance agencies to preempt an unspecified threat. Th…

I disagree that it's similar. It's one thing to perform surveillance on individuals where you have strong reasons to suspect they will engage in terrorist acts (meaning making plans to kill lots of people) and quite another to do so because someone disagrees with you being in power. I'm sure there's an overlap of people who do both but that's not the group I'm talking about and I'm also sure NSA/US authorities abuse…

US intelligence agencies aren't in the business of picking people up and disappearing them for expressing discontent with the power structure.

I believe the Chinese government apparatus is in that business.

Regarding the surveillance for surveillance sake, I don't see much difference. I see you describe exactly what I did.

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#303

Post by csyszf » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 12:54 AM UTC

I'll never open HN again. I talked with some American/EU/Australian folks, in twitter and my company, and they're very nice. I just couldn't understand, why so many people in HN are so arrogant and self-righteous.

I just can't stand those comments, they remind me of Trump- “No one knows China better than me” Although they basiclly know nothing, just as Trump.

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#304

Post by kjaftaedi » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 1:09 AM UTC

eladrin201 wrote: post #26

rwmj wrote: post #13

Before I went to China I bought a burner phone, mainly to install WeChat (which is also a kind of malware and also "required" in China). Basic Android phones are not too expensive these days - I wonder if it will become commonplace to own several and physically separate your life across them? FWIW I got a Huawei phone (Honor 10 Lite) for under 200 EUR, but much cheaper phones than that are available. Edit: To be clea…

I bought a dual sim Mi phone for this purpose as well. It worked out really well. At the border crossing from Hong Kong into mainland china, they didn't seem interested in my devices fortunately. Still will wipe my phone before I use it again, however.

even if you wipe your phone you can still have a compromised baseband.

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#305

Post by skissane » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 1:19 AM UTC

Leary wrote: post #140

Tepix wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China signed the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This action almost certainly violates some of these rights (articles 18-21 come to mind: Articles 18–21 sanctioned the so-called "constitutional liberties", and with spiritual, public, and political freedoms, such as freedom of thought, opinion, religion and conscience, word, and peaceful association of the individual. )

When did China (PRC) sign the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Are you talking about the Republic of China?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) is not a treaty, it is a General Assembly resolution – as such, countries don't "sign it", and it isn't legally binding.

As well as the UDHR, we also have international human rights treaties such as the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). As a treaty, it is binding on those countries which have ratified or acceded to it (signature alone does not legally bind one to a treaty, it merely expresses an intention to ratify it in the future.) On that point, it is worth noting that PRC signed the ICCPR in 1998, but as yet has not ratified it, so is not legally bound to it. (Previously, in 1967, ROC signed it, but never ratified it either; PRC's position is that ROC's 1967 signature was legally void, hence their own signature in 1998.)

(Technically speaking, an unratified signatory, while not bound to the terms of the treaty itself, is obliged under Article 18 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties (VCLT) to "refrain from acts which would defeat the object and purpose of a treaty" – but it is difficult to see how that article could be applicable to the case of China and the ICCPR.)

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#306

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:04 AM UTC

prepend wrote: post #244

dangus wrote: post #227

The headline is really alarmist, implying China in general is applying this practice, while the reality is that this is a practice limited to sensitive regions. It's pretty much in line with the status quo in Western China. China has been very protective of the Xinjiang region for a long time, and very restrictive on travel in and out, especially for foreigners. But here we go, we've started an alarmist comment threa…

What is a sensitive region? Are there any similar regions in Western Europe?

[deleted]

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#307

Post by lopmotr » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:06 AM UTC

npongratz wrote: post #117

BurningFrog wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's what's interesting about China! It's an alternative civilization! The last 30 years we've seen it develop at a rate that is obviously impossible given the experience of all other countries. Yet this, very different, country does it. It's good to have diversity in governance systems and be able to see the different outcomes, even from systems everyone "knows" shouldn't work.

> It's good to have diversity in governance systems and be able to see the different outcomes... I've been lucky not to experience this myself, but I imagine it is bad to experience the "different outcomes" firsthand when the governance system -- novel as it might appear from a distance -- has foundations in violent suppression of individual freedom.

Are you sure you're not experiencing it right now? There aren't many countries that weren't founded on violent suppression of individual freedom - either through war, (probably with compulsory conscription), occupation, or a low-freedom society like feudalism or tribalism.

When you say individual freedom, I think you really mean individual political freedom. Excluding Xinjian, China has probably more freedom in day-to-day life for individuals than, say, America because it has less violent crime, less imprisonment, and lower regulatory barriers to doing business. It might be that it can only achieve these good things by restricting political freedom.

Even when they do restrict individual freedom, like with the one child policy, and internal travel restrictions, that has the aim of making the overall society better. There's a trade-off between individual freedom and survival and growth of the society. Too much freedom is anarchy and too little is totalitarianism. Where is the sweet spot?

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#308

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 2:11 AM UTC

habnds wrote: post #248

dangus wrote: post #227

The headline is really alarmist, implying China in general is applying this practice, while the reality is that this is a practice limited to sensitive regions. It's pretty much in line with the status quo in Western China. China has been very protective of the Xinjiang region for a long time, and very restrictive on travel in and out, especially for foreigners. But here we go, we've started an alarmist comment threa…

The head line is: > China Snares Tourists’ Phones in Surveillance Dragnet by Adding Secret App and subtitle : > Border authorities routinely install the app on the phones of people entering the Xinjiang region by land from Central Asia, gathering personal data and scanning for material considered objectionable. Considering the scale of what China is accused of doing in Xinjiang and China's role as the vanguard of mod…

[deleted]

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#309

Post by FpUser » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 3:20 AM UTC

Japhy_Ryder wrote: post #240

iiuuhhggff wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people who say this forget about the “war on terror” and all the innocent civilians killed in drone stikes.

That is an entirely different thing. You're talking foreign policy, I'm talking domestic policy.

So you say that as long as you kill foreigners it is ok comparatively to state killing their own?

Re: Chinese authorities install app on phones of people entering Xinjiang

#310

Post by CodiePetersen » Wed, Jul 03, 2019, 4:45 AM UTC

mdorazio wrote: post #2

This bit is important: "Foreigners crossing certain Chinese borders into the Xinjiang region"... I'm not aware of Chinese authorities getting quite that draconian (yet) at the normal border entry points in Beijing, Shanghai, etc. However, I think it's still worth following the general advice that if you have sensitive data on your devices, leave them at home and use a burner phone/laptop + restore from the cloud late…

Agreed. I would say the same thing coming into America. Even if you are American. I always refuse to fill out the paper while reentering my own damn country, unless I'm travelling with others. But that means I get pushed to secondary every time. Usually only Hispanic and middle eastern people in there. But the border control agents can take and search anything they want. So I say probably do the same for coming into America on the chance they send you to secondary.