The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat • Hacker News Board

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#21

Post by Sanzig » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:08 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #17

The official proposal if anyone is interested: > The decisions of previous conferences have introduced some restrictions to the use and have imposed constraints on the development of aeronautical mobile applications within some existing mobile allocations traditionally used by the aeronautical mobile applications. > At the same time, the number of manned and unmanned aircraft equipped with sensors has grown significa…

The thing is, 2 MHz of bandwidth in VHF isn't going to help the vast majority of those use cases. The best you can hope for is low-rate telemetry in that band (since that 2 MHz is going to need to be shared with other UAV users, and the noise temperature at VHF is horrendous due to man-made interference).

Those use cases more properly belong in the microwave bands. Why aren't they going after allocation in L-band and S-band?

I also fail to understand why they need an globally coordinated allocation for this. Surely with GPS + cognitive radio approaches, a UAV could use a local allocation set aside for this purpose wherever it's operating?

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#22

Post by rsuelzer » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:09 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #13

arwineap wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to remember some issues around running anything encrypted on frequencies meant for the public, but I've always been interesting in citizen mesh networking. Is it legal, or just not enforced?

At least in the US, encryption of any kind on amateur bands is prohibited. Hams tend to be really good at self-policing, so if a curious person horns in on your traffic and discovers that it's encrypted, you can expect a knock on your door, if you're lucky from the guy that looked up your license from the public database (you're required to transmit your callsign at regular intervals) to ask you to fix it, if you're…

Correct, although there are a group of us looking to change this rule and the FCC seems receptive. It is the AARL that is a bit slow on this issue.

The original rules were drafted during the cold war, so times have changed. More importantly, we believe it is possible to not hide the intent and recepient of a message, while still protecting sensitive content using open source encryption methods.

There are cases that encryption is necessary to maintaining the integrity of emergency infrastructure. For example, remotely logging into a Mesh Node to change the operating frequencies, or sending HIPPA information.

If someone wanted to monitor RF packets they could see that I am logging into my administration console, but they don't really need to see the password.

But, until the FCC issues clear guidance on encryption on the microwave frequencies we do our best to disable it, although there are some emergency services that are literally only available over https, so some hams have decided to forge ahead in the hopes of forcing a rule change.

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#23

Post by geggam » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #15

Unpopular opinion time: spectrum is a limited resource. We shouldn't waste it on efficient analog technologies like conventional commercial and amateur radio. We've already ceased conventional broadcasts: that's a step in the right direction, but there's more to do. The entire RF spectrum should be devoted to LTE-like efficient, packetized, and secure communication. I'd make small exceptions for things like radio ast…

The solar flare that eliminates all the modern methods appreciates your opinion

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#24

Post by quotemstr » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

geggam wrote: post #23

quotemstr wrote: post #15

Unpopular opinion time: spectrum is a limited resource. We shouldn't waste it on efficient analog technologies like conventional commercial and amateur radio. We've already ceased conventional broadcasts: that's a step in the right direction, but there's more to do. The entire RF spectrum should be devoted to LTE-like efficient, packetized, and secure communication. I'd make small exceptions for things like radio ast…

The solar flare that eliminates all the modern methods appreciates your opinion

People have been bringing up the solar flare electromagnetic boogeyman for decades. It's never been an actual problem

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#25

Post by howard941 » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #15

Unpopular opinion time: spectrum is a limited resource. We shouldn't waste it on efficient analog technologies like conventional commercial and amateur radio. We've already ceased conventional broadcasts: that's a step in the right direction, but there's more to do. The entire RF spectrum should be devoted to LTE-like efficient, packetized, and secure communication. I'd make small exceptions for things like radio ast…

I'm saddened that your unpopular opinion targets the very people who pioneered efficient, packetized secure communications, but reminded that there's a reason why we hams lost 220-222 to UPS - we failed to exploit it when we had it.

There's nothing between 54Mhz and 222 Mhz for hams other than the 2m allocation. Please pick on someone else.

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#26

Post by rsuelzer » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:15 PM UTC

dmix wrote: post #18

Karunamon wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US, encryption of any kind on amateur bands is prohibited. Hams tend to be really good at self-policing, so if a curious person horns in on your traffic and discovers that it's encrypted, you can expect a knock on your door, if you're lucky from the guy that looked up your license from the public database (you're required to transmit your callsign at regular intervals) to ask you to fix it, if you're…

So if you can't run any modern internet what would you use the mesh network for? Some of Google's traffic charts show up to 90% of traffic is TLS in the US for Chrome users.

It's an intranet. Sort of a backup internet that would allow for data to be sent at a much higher rate than just voice.

Here is the map in So Cal of the active nodes. https://mapping.kg6wxc.net/meshmap/map_display.php#8/33.970/...

Also, in emergency situations regular FCC rules are suspended so encryption is not a problem. We actually used this mesh to provide internet to hams working emergency communications in a fire zone after their internet lines were burned out.

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#27

Post by geggam » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:16 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #24

geggam wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solar flare that eliminates all the modern methods appreciates your opinion

People have been bringing up the solar flare electromagnetic boogeyman for decades. It's never been an actual problem

Maybe not your lifetime but it has happened and we have been damned lucky more than once recently

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1989_geomagnetic_storm

https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2014/2...

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#28

Post by rsuelzer » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #14

rsuelzer wrote: post #9

as an aside, I got my ham radio licence because of my interest in long distance microwave mesh networking. there is a group called aredn http://www.arednmesh.org which uses wifi devices modified to run in the Amateur portions of 2ghz and 5ghz to create massive mesh networks. The lack of noise on our allocations means we can make really long connections. I personally have a 50 dollar Microtik dish that makes a 25 mile…

There's something similar in the Seattle/Victoria area. https://hamwan.org/ It's really fun to play with. It's not strictly a mesh, but that's OK. It's used heavily for EMCOMM as well as internet linking repeater sites on the tops of mountains where there's no other internet.

Another great project, although I don't think they have modified their firmware to run outside of the Part 15 wifi bands, so they have to deal with noise... Could be wrong though. :)

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#29

Post by Sanzig » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

quotemstr wrote: post #15

Unpopular opinion time: spectrum is a limited resource. We shouldn't waste it on efficient analog technologies like conventional commercial and amateur radio. We've already ceased conventional broadcasts: that's a step in the right direction, but there's more to do. The entire RF spectrum should be devoted to LTE-like efficient, packetized, and secure communication. I'd make small exceptions for things like radio ast…

Well, for one thing, conventional analog broadcasts have not ceased. For example, every FM radio station in North America still broadcasts using the old fashioned FM carrier approach with stereo multiplexed on an AM subcarrier. So-called "digital" stations in North America use OFDM sub-carriers stuffed into the band edges (HD Radio), but they are still backwards-compatible with analog radios due to the widespread deployment of the existing technology.

Also, amateur radio does not necessarily mean old-fashioned and analog. There is a lot of work by amateurs into Shannon-approaching communications on the HF bands, for example. The ham bands exist primarily for education and experimentation.

Backwards compatibility is important. Education is important. Filling the bands with spread-spectrum Shannon-approaching noise may be optimal as far as maximizing data throughput is concerned, but it does not serve some of the other practical constraints on spectrum use.

Re: The Backbone of VHF Amateur Radio May Be Under Threat

#30

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Tue, Jul 02, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #19

I can't help but feel the amateur radio community could have used a rebrand for the internet age. I understand there's a lot of history but it's hard to get young people interested in being _hams_, a word that has not aged well. I got my licence about a decade back and really loved the technical pieces - learning about how radio waves worked, propagation with different bands, the ability to (try) to build your own mo…

> other people just wanted to talk about radios.

I felt the same disappointment when I got into amateur radio just before the modern internet took off. I loved the idea of talking with people around the world and maybe even practicing some foreign languages, so I immediately set up a station for DXing. All those people from exotic foreign countries just wanted to make a few quick remarks about their radios. No one wanted to exchange any actual culture.

But to be fair, the wording of amateur radio regulations in many countries suggests that hams should not try to have substantial conversations over the airwaves. Also, since amateur radio is hobby dominated by older people, a lot of hams in Eastern Europe still remember the Communist era when contact with foreigners was supposed to be strictly business.