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China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

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Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#81

Post by ThomPete »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #40
ThomPete wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pointing the ethical/moral finger at someone else while you are part of the problem is the very definition of disentangling yourself from the system. Some of us are perfectly fine with the negative consequences because we believe the positive far outweighs the negative. In other words, there are other ways to think about this which actually do make it useful to say.

And others among us think the negative in certain aspects of the system can outweigh the positive and things could be improved, and it doesn't mean that we should live in the wilderness hunting our own food if we want to criticise any aspect of said system. The computer mrspuratic is using exists thanks to products from current mining... true. But it could also exist thanks to products from more sustainable mining, i…

The fallacy as far as I can see is yours.

Mining companies don't have more choices than the consumer. The mining companies are also forced into making the choices they do or go out of business based on the reality around them.

Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#82

Post by wffurr »

dalbasal wrote: post #45
wffurr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of regulatory compliance is the way to price in externalities. The other option is a lawsuit after the damage is done.

That's not quite "pricing."

I'm not sure how else one "prices" an externality. Require the company to clean up after itself - that costs money, the company then internalizes that cost into their operating structure and the cost of their products.

Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#83

Post by anthonypasq »

dustingetz wrote: post #75
titzer wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now you realize how the game theory of economics is fundamentally at odds with the natural world and sustainability. It always pays to defect now, and the loudest voices are usually the rich players who moan about economic growth and "burdensome regulations". Mining and logging in the US was very much like this before regulation, but that was on a much smaller scale, with simpler technology and less energy available…

The resolution to the economic prisoner’s dilemma is religion, which evolved to coordinate the globally shared values needed to defeat a backstab/backstab situation. For example “thou shalt not murder” is win/win.

in what world does murdering someone have equivalently inconspicuous externalities as burning fossil fuels?

Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#84

Post by bluGill »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #77
bluGill wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it is not predicted. The free market does not require you to use the cheapest supplier, it requires you to use the best for your situation. Sometimes it is worth paying for quality. If using the cheapest supplier causes your customers who care about the environment to boycott you, then using that cheap supplier isn't a good decision. So the failure comes back to people not actually caring about the environment in…

If the rare earths produced from the Chinese mines and refiners were of lesser quality, then you would have a point. If the refining process requires them to poop in their own backyard, then you might not even be aware of that until many years later, let alone have a free market interest in preventing them from doing that. > So the failure comes back to people not actually caring about the environment in China. Some…

My company is very careful that our suppliers don't use slave labor. We have mapped out supply chain down 6 levels in some cases to ensure this. Slave labor is cheaper, but we won't use it even indirectly.

Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#85

Post by earthstabber »

anthonypasq wrote: post #83
dustingetz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The resolution to the economic prisoner’s dilemma is religion, which evolved to coordinate the globally shared values needed to defeat a backstab/backstab situation. For example “thou shalt not murder” is win/win.

in what world does murdering someone have equivalently inconspicuous externalities as burning fossil fuels?

ours

Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#86

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bluGill wrote: post #84
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the rare earths produced from the Chinese mines and refiners were of lesser quality, then you would have a point. If the refining process requires them to poop in their own backyard, then you might not even be aware of that until many years later, let alone have a free market interest in preventing them from doing that. > So the failure comes back to people not actually caring about the environment in China. Some…

My company is very careful that our suppliers don't use slave labor. We have mapped out supply chain down 6 levels in some cases to ensure this. Slave labor is cheaper, but we won't use it even indirectly.

And so what? Slave labor has long been known to be not profitable, it is easy agency useful to avoid. Also, your consumers will reward you for that.

Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#87

Post by bluGill »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #86
bluGill wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My company is very careful that our suppliers don't use slave labor. We have mapped out supply chain down 6 levels in some cases to ensure this. Slave labor is cheaper, but we won't use it even indirectly.

And so what? Slave labor has long been known to be not profitable, it is easy agency useful to avoid. Also, your consumers will reward you for that.

The last point: do consumers reward me for not picking the cheapest?

Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#88

Post by tracker1 »

titzer wrote: post #33
westiseast wrote: post #5

Perhaps it’s churlish to mention, but... China was happy to ignore environmental standards in order to corner the market in rare earth minerals. American miners couldn’t compete because they were already “internalizing” the environmental costs, and were priced out of the market. Once China had put everyone else out of business (and blocked foreign businesses from mining inside China), it started not only reducing out…

Now you realize how the game theory of economics is fundamentally at odds with the natural world and sustainability. It always pays to defect now, and the loudest voices are usually the rich players who moan about economic growth and "burdensome regulations". Mining and logging in the US was very much like this before regulation, but that was on a much smaller scale, with simpler technology and less energy available…

Another point worth mentioning is exceptions to environmental treaties... they, like any loophole, will be abused.

Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#89

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bluGill wrote: post #87
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so what? Slave labor has long been known to be not profitable, it is easy agency useful to avoid. Also, your consumers will reward you for that.

The last point: do consumers reward me for not picking the cheapest?

Not really. They reward you for not getting caught using slave labor.

Re: China Wrestles with the Toxic Aftermath of Rare Earth Mining

#90

Post by henntipular »

adrianN wrote: post #69
arcticfox wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So now American miners They don't exist anymore though. According to Australia, all of the rare earth expertise is in China now, so it's not as simple as just reopening, and in fact might be very difficult

A few years ago there were no Chinese miners and they managed to get some.

Canada has been training the Chinese on how to mine since before the Canadians had railroads!
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