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Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

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Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

#141

Post by anticensor »

CydeWeys wrote: post #75
salex89 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct, however... I can't imagine a single engineer with any kind of proper education (formal or not) implementing any piece of software or hardware without thinking:"One sensor? Really? What's the failure rate on this thing". That might have been enough to stop the chan of events.

The engineers may not have realized they were relying on one sensor, or they might be the $9/hour variety with no avionics experience who don't know any better. The main problem was higher up. The overall design was bad, and Boeing didn't seem to have a handle on it.

Or they have a "obey all orders even when it is blatantly criminal" clause.

Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

#142

Post by gotdevops »

danielg6 wrote: post #116
gotdevops wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound suspiciously like every other outsourcer I’ve worked with who breaks something critical. A million reasons why it wasn’t their fault. They did exactly what they were told right and didn’t take one second to validate the assumptions surrounding the systematic nature of the solution. The goal, the mission, the end state solution. That was another departments concern right. That was QA’s concern, that was desi…

I do think it’s weird that the parent post started out by saying the sensors were designed to spec, but is he wrong? The article even said as much. (Not MCAS though.) I didn’t read it as an excuse. It seems like you’re saying that outsourced devs should have as much accountability as home-based devs or the entity Boeing itself. I don’t agree with this. The salary does not reflect that. The work that’s assigned does n…

It’s a very interesting point. I’ve worked with some very skilled devs from HCL. I’ve also seen them turn over to other firms because of salary and other firm related issues. I don’t think that piece has anything or very little to do with the fact that they are Indian. However the organizational culture is definitely flawed and it does appear to be more prevalent in large fixed bid outsourcing arrangements. I’ve witnessed it first hand being brought in to resolve issues created by the outsourcer on projects as large as 1/2bn. They difference between those projects is the mission. Those project were critical on a financial basis. This was and aircraft with peoples life’s on the line. No one dev or otherwise can say they didn’t know this code was going on an airplane. No matter their salary.

Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

#143

Post by gotdevops »

CydeWeys wrote: post #73
rossdavidh wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen this kind of problem before (never in a case where lives were on the line), and I called it "pathological optimism". If you are in a corporate culture of the sort that lionizes "can-do" thinking, then saying "that won't work" is going to look defeatist. I have to wonder if seeing SV startups go to multi-billion dollar companies on a regular basis, has given CEOs in other industries a case of envy. But mor…

> I have to wonder if seeing SV startups go to multi-billion dollar companies on a regular basis, has given CEOs in other industries a case of envy. If so, they're learning the wrong lessons. SV unicorns become valuable because of explosive growth, not because they underpay their engineers. Just the opposite; a lot of engineers at SV startups are paid quite handsomely (especially the early ones at successful unicorns…

I think you are right on with this. Most startups also leveraging an organizational culture that goes against silos or fiefdoms. In the startup culture I’ve been a part of fast feedback and early identification of flaws in the process is a cornerstone of the development process. Troubleshooting issues in production is the worse case scenario. In this case production is literally a flying airplane.

Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

#144

Post by 01GOD »

KILL the h1b visa before it kills any more innocent people!!!

A silicon valley recruiter said this (on the phone to ME this past week) about the copy/paste-from-stack-exchange code monkeys from india on the h1b visa and those in india: "it's all crap!!!"

That was the first time I had ever spoken with him on the phone. So if he is that open about it, it's REALLY HORRIBLE!!!

But the situation is that evil scammer scumbag jews that have corrupted some companies prefer to not support and perpetuate and enrichen WESTERN CHRISTIAN SOCIETY by hiring PERFECTIONIST WHITE CHRISTIAN ENGINEERS and instead prefer cheaper, crappy, low quality, obedient and unquestioning third world goyim from india that will be easier puppets with which to assist in ruining WESTERN CHRISTIAN SOCIETY!!!

Any White software engineer that has been in silicon valley long enough KNOWS THAT!!!

Look at this article also: https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/boeing-s-737-max-s...

Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

#145

Post by gotdevops »

gscott wrote: post #82
bsder wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is that so hard to understand? Massive fail at risk management maybe? Managerial bonus or promotion for saving money this quarter >> money lost more quarters out than I'll be around

This is really it. Board of directors set goals, say reducing costs, they offer a big bonus, you meet the goal, get the big bonus. Problems become someone else's proble. You buy a big car, house, go to fancy non-profit's $500 dinners.

This is definitely one major issue. At the top. The challenge at the top is that these outsourcing contracts are for many millions of dollars. They are often written in such a way that the parent cannot dictate how the outsourcing firm conducts business. The parent fills out a ticket and the outsourcer assigns the ticket to a resource and marks the ticket complete. The issue here is that this is not a bug related to email or Login credentials. This is an airplane with folks relying on it for safety of flight.

Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

#147

Post by ranci »

nonamechicken wrote: post #94

I really doubt 737 Max's failure has anything to with outsourcing to India. Usually, most of the work outsourced to India are low value work (what I call as 'near brain dead' type). I don't think Boeing would outsource anything even remotely critical to a company like HCL. From the article: >Based on resumes posted on social media, HCL engineers helped develop and test the Max’s flight-display software, while employe…

"I don't think Boeing would outsource anything even remotely critical to a company like HCL...So, there is no way they would have outsourced safety critical stuff to HCL."

From the article:

Boeing opened what it called a “center of excellence” with HCL in Chennai, saying the companies would partner “to create software critical for flight test.”

Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

#148

Post by ericd »

echelon wrote: post #54
ericd wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The stockholders are you and I, via retirement plans.

Our investment portfolios and retirement plans can be rebalanced. Those that died in the two Max crashes are gone forever. This isn't cheating on emissions. We have to send a strong message.

If you mean just lose money when you say the stockholders should pay, then yeah, whatever. But if you mean that they should be held responsible, I think that’s absurd. That’s what I meant by my response.

Losing 1000 people is a tragedy, and those responsible should be held responsible. But a company like Boeing is a huge machine with many people working diligently on extremely complicated products, the vast majority of whom didn’t touch this faulty system at all. Which is to say you shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

#149

Post by danielg6 »

gotdevops wrote: post #142
danielg6 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do think it’s weird that the parent post started out by saying the sensors were designed to spec, but is he wrong? The article even said as much. (Not MCAS though.) I didn’t read it as an excuse. It seems like you’re saying that outsourced devs should have as much accountability as home-based devs or the entity Boeing itself. I don’t agree with this. The salary does not reflect that. The work that’s assigned does n…

It’s a very interesting point. I’ve worked with some very skilled devs from HCL. I’ve also seen them turn over to other firms because of salary and other firm related issues. I don’t think that piece has anything or very little to do with the fact that they are Indian. However the organizational culture is definitely flawed and it does appear to be more prevalent in large fixed bid outsourcing arrangements. I’ve witn…

Thanks. I thought your first post was very emotional and didn’t align with the truth of the situation, which is why I felt the need to reply.

You’re right in that the primary focus of the article was not the outsourced devs being Indian. The issue comes from how people respond to such articles, no matter the article’s intention.

I’m not saying that outsourced devs shouldn’t be held accountable for any faults. The point is that there are different degrees of accountability for all parties involved.

The article only chose to focus on one of these groups, which is fine. What’s not fine is HN comments that seem to not realize this.

No matter the salary or experience or contract, outsourced devs/companies shouldn’t be in a position of power to break critical systems on an airplane. (I’m not saying this is what happened with the Max.)

Re: Boeing's 737 Max software outsourced to lower-paid engineers

#150

Post by mikeash »

danso wrote: post #65
mikeash wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The software performed exactly as designed. The problem is a faulty spec for how it should behave. The software is pretty much incidental.

Software is an integral part of modern flight. Somewhere up the chain, there’s a highly-paid software engineer/manager who helped design and signed off on the spec.

Would a highly paid software engineer be expected to understand the potential consequences of runaway trim? I’d think that would be up to the aerodynamics folks, who most likely said that it was not a problem.
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