“The books will stop working.” • Hacker News Board

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#431

Post by la_barba » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #409

la_barba wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the freedom of the creator to pick a license and method they wish to use to distribute their work. I'm talking about DRM for things which are mostly entertainment - things like movies, games, music, etc. We all have equal freedoms to not support such platforms. I don't follow what point you're trying to make with your gym example. If the gym has some policies which you dislike, you can simply chose to not go th…

They gym doesn't have any policy. If you have a membership, you're free to use the facility or not. Real life doesn't have any policy either, if you have the capability, you're free to copy & distribute what you have access to or not. It is a third party that is trying to interfere with these native abilities. The ability to create something is not intrinsically tied to the ability to control it. Which isn't to say t…

>if you have the capability, you're free to copy & distribute what you have access to or not.

Well, you can do anything you like with the freedoms you have as enshrined in the legal framework that applies to your domicile. Do you also respect the freedom of a creator to choose a license and a distribution method of their liking for their works? It seems like you don't.

> What I'm saying is that it is not 'entitlement' on the part of the copier, but entitlement on the part of the copyright holder to expect to hold dominion over other people's capabilities.

But the fact is that one of those people is on firm legal ground, and the other one isn't.

>Which isn't to say there's anything wrong with copyright laws, per se.

Well, your comments seem to indicate that you find many things wrong with the copyright law.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#432

Post by la_barba » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:03 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #360

la_barba wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is rather bizarre to see some people feel entitled to content which isn't distributed as per their own personal wishes. A principled person would chose to take his/her business elsewhere and purchase a book on a platform whose ethics they agree with. Not saying I'm some Mother Teresa type.. but I'm against online ads, and I don't run an ad-blocker. I simply don't visit sites which feature blaring in-your-face ads.…

> It is rather bizarre to see some people feel entitled to content which isn't distributed as per their own personal wishes. A principled person would chose to take his/her business elsewhere and purchase a book on a platform whose ethics they agree with. Couple counter-points: 1) It's reasonable that I'm expected to compensate the creator for the content. It's not reasonable for the publisher to dictate how I get to…

1) If I'm selling lemonade and my terms and conditions are that you have to jump 10 times before paying me, and I only accept payment in rocks with 10% ferrous oxide, you are free to laugh and ignore me. Please also remember that we're talking about games, movies, music... not exactly life-critical products.

2) I agree. I avoid DRM and other BS as much as possible. I went out and purchased affinity photo when photoshop went to a subscription model. I'm going to cling on to my CS6 for as many years as I can. Yes, I'm going to lose out eventually when plugins stop working or when I buy a new camera whose RAW files cannot be opened by CS6, but thems the breaks.

3) Yes, that sucks! I don't know what else to say. You can either be principled and avoid DRM, or be a realist and accept DRM in as few places as possible. I'm objecting to the "I'm entitled to pirate it because they didn't sell it or stream it without DRM" mindset.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#433

Post by m463 » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:14 PM UTC

c0vfefe wrote: post #415

m463 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of things that wouldn't exist if they weren't grandfathered in. I think (relatively) inexpensive private planes wouldn't exist without grandfathered componements like say lycoming engines. And it's been said many times cars that people can drive wouldn't exist if they were invented today. And then there are guns.

At the risk of sounding too conservative for HN, this 'grandfathering' is an invaluable means of insulating societal infrastructure from the tyranny of cultural value shift.

I'm mulling over "cultural value shift".

Maybe some of it is that. But a lot of traditional rights of the general public are too easily overcome by dedicated funded interests via lawmakers and regulators.

Like or hate trump, but his "to make a new regulation, you first need to repeal two regulations" thing was pretty interesting.

I think there need to be more checks and balances than simple grandfathering architected into things when rights are lost.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#434

Post by specialist » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:38 PM UTC

la_barba wrote: post #424

specialist wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a very old debate. It was settled a long time ago. Restrictive copyright protection measures hurt sales. Because it prevents potential customers from trying your products. Anyone arguing otherwise is motivated by something other than facts, history, logic.

Companies are not dummies, they know what works and how to make money. DRMd content is a billion+ dollar industry. But yeah, if you believe that it doesn't work, you're free to believe so. >Anyone arguing otherwise is motivated by something other than facts, history, logic. Its easier to ask, rather than assume.

"DRMd content is a billion+ dollar industry."

Of course it is.

Who made most of the money during the Klondike Gold Rush?

(for just one such example)

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#435

Post by Retra » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 5:43 PM UTC

la_barba wrote: post #431

Retra wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They gym doesn't have any policy. If you have a membership, you're free to use the facility or not. Real life doesn't have any policy either, if you have the capability, you're free to copy & distribute what you have access to or not. It is a third party that is trying to interfere with these native abilities. The ability to create something is not intrinsically tied to the ability to control it. Which isn't to say t…

>if you have the capability, you're free to copy & distribute what you have access to or not. Well, you can do anything you like with the freedoms you have as enshrined in the legal framework that applies to your domicile. Do you also respect the freedom of a creator to choose a license and a distribution method of their liking for their works? It seems like you don't. > What I'm saying is that it is not 'entitlement…

>Do you also respect the freedom of a creator to choose a license and a distribution method of their liking for their works? It seems like you don't.

It seems like you want to peddle a narrative. Otherwise you wouldn't be jumping to conclusions about things you have no knowledge of.

>Well, your comments seem to indicate that you find many things wrong with the copyright law.

My comments are not referring to the merit of copyright law. In fact, I explicitly said that I'm not arguing there was anything wrong with it per se in order to highlight that. So if that's what you're looking for, stop. You are missing my point. Don't accuse me of trying to make a point that I am explicitly telling you I'm not trying to make. That is beyond uncharitable.

>But the fact is that one of those people is on firm legal ground, and the other one isn't.

Copyright law was invented in the seventeenth century. The vast majority of human history has taken place in a world where humans were rewarded for copying and sharing any information they could find. I have the lyrics to a copyrighted song stuck in my head at this very moment! I don't want it, but it is there.

My objection is the use of the word 'entitlement,' which is nothing more than a propagandist term here.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#436

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:00 PM UTC

la_barba wrote: post #429

TeMPOraL wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gyms are substitutable, "movies, games, music, etc." are not. Your argument works for e.g. Steam vs. GOG when both carry a particular game, but it doesn't work in general, because a DRMed work is usually DRMed everywhere.

Well, okay, maybe you won't be able to buy a non-DRM version of a game you really like. That is a problem for the creator. If people simply walked out of a situation where they don't agree with the terms, maybe more creators would notice.

Piracy is essentially "walking out of a situation".

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#437

Post by la_barba » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 6:27 PM UTC

Retra wrote: post #435

la_barba wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if you have the capability, you're free to copy & distribute what you have access to or not. Well, you can do anything you like with the freedoms you have as enshrined in the legal framework that applies to your domicile. Do you also respect the freedom of a creator to choose a license and a distribution method of their liking for their works? It seems like you don't. > What I'm saying is that it is not 'entitlement…

>Do you also respect the freedom of a creator to choose a license and a distribution method of their liking for their works? It seems like you don't. It seems like you want to peddle a narrative. Otherwise you wouldn't be jumping to conclusions about things you have no knowledge of. >Well, your comments seem to indicate that you find many things wrong with the copyright law. My comments are not referring to the merit…

What you said:

> Real life doesn't have any policy either, if you have the capability, you're free to copy & distribute what you have access to or not. It is a third party that is trying to interfere with these native abilities.

Your comment indicates that you feel its your right to be able to infringe on copyright.

>My objection is the use of the word 'entitlement,' which is nothing more than a propagandist term here.

Okay, I won't use that term, what term would you prefer?

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#438

Post by PowerfulWizard » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 7:20 PM UTC

LeonM wrote: post #374

PowerfulWizard wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have 300+ books purchased and read on iOS Kindle, after buying Neal Stephenson's latest recently I discovered it has an obnoxious popover Audible ad on the page browse screen which must be re-dismissed each time you open the book. I was shocked how quickly it totally ruined the experience of reading a book. I haven't read more than about 10 pages on Kindle since, and I can't bear to buy another kindle book knowing…

Wait... you bought the book and still got ads? That's unacceptable. Ask for a full refund and never ever buy anything from that company again.

Yeah, I mean for context this is what it looks like: https://imgur.com/a/Ngcsa3q

It isn't uncommon for books to promote other books before/after the content, but something about having it in the page movement is so distracting. And it is slow to load in, meanwhile it is just a big white square blocking the book title with an animated spinner.

There isn't any company I would "trust" to provide an uniformly excellent experience so I don't really hold it against Amazon in toto, I still think their ability to do the long tail of retail is excellent. I didn't refund the book because I still borrowed it and read it, and I feel that the author and publisher still deserve their share since they've done nothing wrong.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#439

Post by kexx » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

la_barba wrote: post #270

zamadatix wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another hypothetical... if it were impossible to pirate Windows, would it be nearly as popular around the world? If even one person/business would have used something else that was free as a result of having never used Windows before then there is a definite argument piracy drives sales. Of course the world is more complicated than ideological arguments about individual sales. https://www.forbes.com/sites/emmawool…

>As another hypothetical... if it were impossible to pirate Windows, would it be nearly as popular around the world? Why Windows became popular will never have a single unarguable objective answer. It was probably a combination of factors, like anything else. The only fact we know is that Microsoft became one the most successful and richest companies, and it was because hundreds of millions of people paid Microsoft f…

Microsoft did not grow big, because millions of home users decided to buy DOS/Windows as they considered the best choice. Microsoft purchased DOS, which was bundled for every single IBM PC. This gave the foundation for the company to be able to improve their software family giving them a stable income even if every single DOS alternative was superior to their system. IBM was not able to prevent the creation of the PC compatibles which was a really strong advantage for MS as DOS became their default go to OS. Cheap computers created a really big market for the platform so developing to MS products became a good idea. However the businesses were the ones who choose to buy Microsoft products, and not because of the OS, but their office software products, which worked, of course, primarily in their OS. Most of the home users just get it bundled with their hardware purchase, others for home use just pirated it (especially out of US). Their focus were the software they use, did not really care about the OS. And that's how piracy helped MS, children playing with computer games arrived in the work market with familiarity with MS products, which kept the companies using and buying those products.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#440

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

la_barba wrote: post #432

TeMPOraL wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is rather bizarre to see some people feel entitled to content which isn't distributed as per their own personal wishes. A principled person would chose to take his/her business elsewhere and purchase a book on a platform whose ethics they agree with. Couple counter-points: 1) It's reasonable that I'm expected to compensate the creator for the content. It's not reasonable for the publisher to dictate how I get to…

1) If I'm selling lemonade and my terms and conditions are that you have to jump 10 times before paying me, and I only accept payment in rocks with 10% ferrous oxide, you are free to laugh and ignore me. Please also remember that we're talking about games, movies, music... not exactly life-critical products. 2) I agree. I avoid DRM and other BS as much as possible. I went out and purchased affinity photo when photosh…

1) Sure, but while you can set conditions on my purchasing lemonade from you, you're not entitled to tell me what I can do with the lemonade after I buy it and walk away from the stand. Unfortunately, DRM does exactly that - it limits the ways I can consume products after I already paid all relevant parties for it.

3) I can be principled realist and accept DRM whenever it's convenient, and find ways to break it or alternate sources whenever I prefer it.