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Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

wsj.com

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Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#141

Post by Fezzik »

chrisjc wrote: post #136
40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

I hate to dilute the conversation and the point you're trying to make, but I've had absolutely no luck grasping what this 'woke' meme is. Something about liberals finally understanding what conservatives have been saying all along?

I would define it simply as a buzz word that silly people use to try to express a unique awareness and deeper understanding that no-one else can have of more liberal issues (racial, LBGTQ, social condition, etc...)

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#142

Post by bayareanative »

jshowa3 wrote: post #134

I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from someone who works there often. Also, if open source software has demonstrated, sequestering IP behind patents is a hindrance to society. And your critique about civil rights abuses could equally be leveled against the US itself. After all, we put several immigrant children in concentration camps on the daily because they just want to move to…

Chips are different because it costs more to reverse/reengineer them, but once engineered (or copied) for manufacturing, it's trivial to make more. Software and physical design is more difficult to control.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#143

Post by magduf »

40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

>but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps.

How is that worse than doing business in a nation that has imprisoned thousands of impoverished migrants in concentration camps and has forcibly separated children from their families, to the point where many of them have never been reunited?

At least in China, the facilities for large-scale manufacturing all exist there. You need some tiny screws to build your laptop? No problem, there's a company in the same city that makes them by the millions; in America, you have to contract with some machine shop to make them for a fortune and you can't get the quantity you need for large-scale manufacturing.[1]

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-...

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#144

Post by dvtrn »

gambiting wrote: post #115
dvtrn wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Strictly when it comes to customer service? Maybe Razer? Their prices are definitely horror inducing for some of their peripherals, otoh...but that’s probably applicable to a large part of the “gaming peripherals” market.

Wait, what? I own a razer laptop but I bought it with knowledge that if anything goes wrong Razer support is worse than useless.

YMMV? I have the last generation blade laptop, and granted Ive only had two tickets opened with support but they were (at least in my experience) surprisingly fast and on the money with both experiences.

I didn’t want to speak for everyone so that’s why I posited the italicized “Maybe” because PC support is like throwing darts at a dart board.

From ten miles away.

With headwind.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#145

Post by qubex »

In the specific case of the new Mac Pro, I don’t really think there’s much IP to “rip off”: it’s a fairly ordinary PC in an unusual case running a pro portray OS that has been made to run on non-proprietary hardware for more than a decadeS. There’s not much that can be ‘ripped off’ that couldn’t be inferred from the year down of a single unit, and not much of value, honestly. They’re almost all off-the-shelf components and those that aren’t are already incorporated in other SKUs already produced on the mainland (such as the iMac Pro).

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#146

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Barrin92 wrote: post #131
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you say China is unstable? It's now a dictatorship, with a single man ruling for life. The history of dictatorships shows, for fundamental reasons, stability in the short term and chaos in the medium. (The fundamental reasons include not being able to back away from bad decisions, eliminating competent rivals, and as a result bumbling into crises that seem to escalate themselves.)

>It's now a dictatorship, with a single man ruling for life. This is a cartoon take on China. Yes, China is led by a fairly Leninist party structure in nominal terms, but in terms of management China is relatively decentralised. Politically but in particular fiscally regional and local authorities manage day-to-day operations with significant leeway depending on the region, anything else would be unfeasible in a coun…

> China is led by a fairly Leninist party structure in nominal terms

China's party structure was fine and decidedly non-dictatorial. Deng was not a dictator and neither was Hu Jintao. They did not, like Xi has, ensconce themselves as leaders for life [1].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/26/xi-jinping-chi...

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#147

Post by bwb »

chrisjc wrote: post #136
40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

I hate to dilute the conversation and the point you're trying to make, but I've had absolutely no luck grasping what this 'woke' meme is. Something about liberals finally understanding what conservatives have been saying all along?

This isn't about politics, it is about how the world economy is going to work and to what degree countries specialize versus protect certain industries IMO :)

Post WW2 there was a big movement to integrate world economies under the belief that countries don't go to war against their economic partners. I must admit I am a huge believer in this.

Now, under the leadership of the 80s and 90s, on both sides of the aisle this went too far and the USA probably needed to add some protection to its domestic labor market. IMO the EU navigated that better, but culturally they have always been less merc.

Anyway, this is where we are at, we now have people in power questioning that....

My worry is that that we will untangle this fantastic system, rather than tangle but in a smarter way and provide better domestic protections.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#148

Post by scohesc »

jshowa3 wrote: post #134

I honestly think the China IP rip off is overblown, and this is coming from someone who works there often. Also, if open source software has demonstrated, sequestering IP behind patents is a hindrance to society. And your critique about civil rights abuses could equally be leveled against the US itself. After all, we put several immigrant children in concentration camps on the daily because they just want to move to…

Not related to OP, but I think every country has the right to stop illegal immigration into their country - the US has been warning everyone numerous times and have said illegal migrants will be put into these places while they get processed and/or deported. These people made a choice to try and take the easy path for a better life, through methods that are less-than-ideal for the host country. Just because someone wants to do something doesn't mean they're going to get it.

Also, your definition is quite different from the original definition of concentration camps, where people were forced against their will to be put on trains like cattle and hauled to camps to be systematically worked to death and slaughtered en masse. China is quite literally doing what happened less than a century ago during WW2 and the rest of the world is doing nothing about it because China has an absolutely massive stranglehold on the worlds economy.

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#149

Post by ASalazarMX »

chrisjc wrote: post #136
40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

I hate to dilute the conversation and the point you're trying to make, but I've had absolutely no luck grasping what this 'woke' meme is. Something about liberals finally understanding what conservatives have been saying all along?

Not parent, but I always assumed it was a synonym of "enlightened". It turns out that's because its intended meaning has been diluted by now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke

Re: Apple Moves Mac Pro Production to China

#150

Post by riq_ »

40acres wrote: post #123

In the short term, moving to China is always the right move, the labor is cheaper, the regulation is lighter, the market is gigantic and the middle class is growing every day. In the long term, I believe we are mortgaging our future. Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned tho…

> Not only is China ripping off IP but companies like Apple who try to be "woke" have no buisness advocating for equality at home while doing buisness with a nation that has imprisoned thousands of religious minorities in re-education camps.

First of all: You are not wrong.

But similar things can be said about USA. USA steals a lot of stuff too. But of course the American press won't tell you about that. Or if they mention it, they will put phrase it like "America liberated the population of Irak (insert any country here) from the dictarship".

But the press on other countries could say different things about the USA:

"Not only is USA has a long history of creating coup-d'etat in foreign countries (e.g: South America), and installing governments that favor their policy and killing thousands of innocent people to achieve that. But also is known to create false evidence to invade countries to steal their oil and killing thousands of innocent people, again. And recently it has been proved that the USA spied on their allies to..."

I don't want to put in a way that the USA is "bad" or China "good", or vice-versa.

But the important thing here is: critical thinking. Don't buy what the press tells you.

Is China "bad" ? Who is telling you that China is "bad" ? Does the person that is telling you that China is "bad" gain something from it? Is that person any better than China?

Companies are driven to make money. Otherwise they would be an NGO, and not a company.

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