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Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

nytimes.com

171–180 of 223 posts

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American companies have access to the Chinese market. If you go to any major Chinese city, that will be obvious to you pretty quickly. American brands are everywhere. US companies do very well for themselves in the Chinese market. The reason for the trade imbalance is not Chinese protectionism, but rather structural issues in the United States and the Dollar's role as global reserve currency.

> American brands are everywhere. Some American brands are everywhere.... Obviously some have been heavily restricted, most prominently internet media companies.

A lot of American brands are in China. The restrictions are about censorship of information, so they affect Google, Facebook and newspapers. You can still buy Starbucks, Levi jeans, iPhones, Ford automobiles and KFC buckets.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think an argument could be made that Republicans, or at least conservatives, have now become the defenders of free speech while "the left" seems not just comfortable with but intent on increasing censorship, at least certain kinds. I will note that this isn't a complete slam dunk of an argument, I would say the left in the 60's was motivated more by the general principle of free speech, whereas I would say the righ…

Most here at HN think of the left as wanting more censorship in order to avoid hurtful speech, but that's not generally how the left thinks of it. On the left, the view is that the practice of maximizing freedom of speech by tolerating extreme speech, has the effect of reducing the freedom of expression of the non-extreme, non-powerful constituencies. In other words, protecting freedom of expression by politely toler…

More accurately, I believe it's fair to say your description is a steelmanned version of "the left's" argument. I happen to be in very high agreement with what you've said.

Some issues I see with this perspective:

- a very small percentage of people, regardless of where they fall on the political spectrum, think about these matters in anything approaching the level of complexity displayed in your comment. This thread is absolutely full of people who seem to have lost the ability to distinguish between reality itself and an extremely lazy interpretation of reality. I can appreciate the frustration that's brought them to this point, but the ability for a small percentage of people like you to skillfully articulate a steel-manned version (that may not actually be technically accurate let's not forget) of the beliefs of an emotional mob doesn't give me a lot of comfort

- not all powerful actors are behaving in a completely honest or as well thought out manner, or may believe that censorship "overreach" is strategically justifiable, from an "ends justify the means". And this may very well be a reasonable and even correct belief, at this snapshot in time, and under these particular circumstances - but what about the future? What if we get another Trump-style leader in the future exploits well-intended limits of free speech toward an undesirable end?

- by not extending any effort towards understanding the real and extremely psychologically complex motivations that are actually behind the emotional lashing out of people (that we all know very well happens with humans, that can be observed throughout history, and on this very forum), often along "racist" lines, those who propose to curtail free speech may be acting in an overly enthusiastic manner (not to mention, if people can't be bothered to even consider calming down and making a serious effort to understand what is actually going on, why should I trust they have the mental capacity to make wise decisions on something as important as free speech?)

The world is incomprehensibly complex, and getting worse at a rapid pace. I think extreme caution is warranted on any matters related to something so fundamentally important as free speech. If some of these ideas are really so bad, why can good ideas not win out in the marketplace? I have this constant feeling that there is a lack of serious effort, and that there are often not-easily-seen reasons why such an effort cannot be made (Thomas Frank, Jonathan Haidt, and Mark Blyth would be a few people worth listening to if one was interested in starting to get some depth in this perspective).

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean. The situation defacto is that china and the chinese has free access to our markets while we don't have free access to theirs. The situation is that defacto china is benefitting from their developing nation status outcompeting western companies just on shipping prices. Very few US products enter the chinese market plus those who do are forced to give over their IP.

American companies have access to the Chinese market. If you go to any major Chinese city, that will be obvious to you pretty quickly. American brands are everywhere. US companies do very well for themselves in the Chinese market. The reason for the trade imbalance is not Chinese protectionism, but rather structural issues in the United States and the Dollar's role as global reserve currency.

Sorry but this is simply wrong. Europe is well aware of this problem too and there is support for Trumps war with china far into the EU.

China doesn't protect IP exactly because of the way they operate. Why do you think they don't want to enforce IP rights in China?

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#174
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are just rationalizing China’s purposeful one way trade barriers.

Explain to me how billions of dollars in subsidies for agriculture are not one way trade barriers.

It definitely is. But the magnitude is much different. China makes it very hard to do business in a wide spectrum of industries. That's their right. But it's not free trade in any sense.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> American brands are everywhere. Some American brands are everywhere.... Obviously some have been heavily restricted, most prominently internet media companies.

A lot of American brands are in China. The restrictions are about censorship of information, so they affect Google, Facebook and newspapers. You can still buy Starbucks, Levi jeans, iPhones, Ford automobiles and KFC buckets.

I.e the big companies yes those who also have much of their production done in China. Thats not the same as China being open to western companies like the west is to china. And again no IP protection with countless cases of ip theft and forced technology transfer by the mafia run chinese goverment. To claim that the structural problems are US is absurd.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying Oracle to use their database software makes Oracle stronger. Paying China to use their manufacturing makes China stronger. That's the meta-game. China strongly discouraged their citizens and companies from buying US products and making the US stronger, but the US encouraged their citizens to buy from China, making China stronger. This worked out well for China.

Commerce is a two way game. Paying China to use their manufacturing makes the US stronger too.

Tell that to the 4 million factory workers who lost their middle-class jobs.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what your thinking is behind this. Ok, maybe you're a believer in the Trump's an idiot meme, fine, but do you actually think not a single person on Trump's trade team understands that trade wars are a high risk undertaking, that it might not be a complete cakewalk? Take Robert Lighthizer for example: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/22/china-japan-lighth... https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/18/watch-robe…

"trade wars are good, and easy to win"

...said one person (who is generally believed to be a compulsive liar), not his entire team.

While we lack the ability to articulate a defense or substantiation of our religion, we more than make up for it with the vigor to downvote, on a platform that censors those with dissenting opinions.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Concentration camp" has a specific connotation. Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. Fault Trump with everything that's his fault, but suggesting that this is a precursor to mass graves and genocide is just hyperbole.

> "Concentration camp" has a specific connotation. In my personal experience, "concentration camp" has been applied specifically to mean the camps operated by the German government in the 1930's and 40's, camps which intentionally tortured and murdered millions of innocent Jews, and certain other "undesirables" and enemies of the Nazi regime. When I hear that term, I personally think of emaciated prisoners wearing st…

The use of concentration camps as part of a planned ethnic cleansing campaign originated with the American governments efforts to relocate and exterminate the indigenous populations of the Southeastern United States see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act if you want to pick up the trail.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I'm curious what might happen if China gets to a level where they have the best tech, but are not interested in sharing it.

Going by history[1], I'd guess that the "respect for IP" by the west might get a bit squishy, and become sacrosanct in China. 1. Hollywood's current stance on IP has reversed from when it was founded and actively undermining Edison's cinematography IP. Same goes for aircraft engineering in France in light of the Wright brothers patent war, and the inchoate American industry vs British IP.

Edison was ruthless about patents and their reach. There are many stories of him sending men to confiscate camera and film from early directors/film makers arguing he owned the content they created with "his" technology. He also personally claimed the patents for many technologies invented at his firm vs listing the actual inventor but keeping ownership and royalties to his firm like today. He was a titan of inventing for sure and fostered an environment where amazing things were created but would probably be considered incredibly toxic in today's world.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#180
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Republican and Democratic parties did a flip around the turn of the 20th century. What's happened since the 1960s is more that the Republican party has been charging madly off into the far right (and, in some cases, simply into looney-land), while the Democratic party has shuffled nervously rightward after them. You'll note that it's far from true now to say that the Republicans are doing much of anything that th…

I think an argument could be made that Republicans, or at least conservatives, have now become the defenders of free speech while "the left" seems not just comfortable with but intent on increasing censorship, at least certain kinds. I will note that this isn't a complete slam dunk of an argument, I would say the left in the 60's was motivated more by the general principle of free speech, whereas I would say the righ…

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