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“The books will stop working.”

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Re: “The books will stop working.”

#421

Post by dredmorbius »

ricardobeat wrote: post #365
dgudkov wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about scanning. It's about printing (replicating) a book - it is significantly more expensive to replicate a real book than a digital book.

Well, he is arguing it’s not. I imagine you’ve seen a photocopier. You don’t need the copy to be the same print quality, size, or even bound at all. In fact copying entire books was done daily where I went to university and took no longer than 15m, at something like five bucks each. You’d bring that stack of A4 home, and maybe hand it down if it survived the semester.

I'm largely referring to digital reproduction. A tablet, or better, e-ink reader, can hold 1,000s of texts for the price of a single mid-priced academic work. And in most cases, sufices.

Photocopying / xerographic printing is modestly expensive, though a high-quality laserprinter reduces costs to about a penny per printed side. Stock choice (acid-free rag, for durability) is a larger cost.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#422

Post by grumpy-cowboy »

thelazydogsback wrote: post #413
LeonM wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... you bought the book and still got ads? That's unacceptable. Ask for a full refund and never ever buy anything from that company again.

You can now pay $200/mo for cable and still be forced to watch un-skippable ads for on-demand programming.

You _rent_ cable service. He _bought_ a book. Not the same thing.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#423

Post by dredmorbius »

la_barba wrote: post #312
dredmorbius wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, Bill Gates has explicitly stated he prefers pirated MS Windows use to unencumbered Linux converts: "[A]s long as they're going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade." https://web.archive.org/web/20060411095315/https://www.latim...

I don't see what point you're trying to make? Microsoft continues to protect all their commercial products with DRM. They clearly see value in doing that.

That the hypothetical case of OS piracy was false, explicitly acknowledged by the creator of the OS in question.

Microsoft's DRM on their own software is quite intentionally weak. Enforcement via audits (through its proxy arm, the BSA, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSA_(The_Software_Alliance)), has been the preferred method.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#424

Post by la_barba »

specialist wrote: post #377
la_barba wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its fine to have an opinion on how things should be, but some of your assertions are not based on facts. >Virtually all major DRM-"protected" works are available on thepiratebay shortly after release. Sometimes before release. "Virtually all Server OSs get hacked/have had security bugs. Nobody should use them to host or store anything." All you're saying is that DRM isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect, and it isn't exa…

This is a very old debate. It was settled a long time ago. Restrictive copyright protection measures hurt sales. Because it prevents potential customers from trying your products. Anyone arguing otherwise is motivated by something other than facts, history, logic.

Companies are not dummies, they know what works and how to make money. DRMd content is a billion+ dollar industry. But yeah, if you believe that it doesn't work, you're free to believe so.

>Anyone arguing otherwise is motivated by something other than facts, history, logic.

Its easier to ask, rather than assume.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#425

Post by effingwewt »

grumpy-cowboy wrote: post #422
thelazydogsback wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can now pay $200/mo for cable and still be forced to watch un-skippable ads for on-demand programming.

You _rent_ cable service. He _bought_ a book. Not the same thing.

Actually he 'rented' the book as well. Some years ago companies all found they could use the TOS against us for digital purchases. His 'purchase' was actually a license to view X content on Y devices Z times.

This enrages me as they charge us money for a virtual good which as soon as we purchase is considered worthless by the selling company. They can ban you- effectively closing your account and blocking your access to your 'purchases', or they can, as discussed here, decide to remove your purchase for 'insert_reason' without making you whole. This incentivizes companies toward hostile consumer attitudes in the name of profit.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#426

Post by sp332 »

jmiserez wrote: post #128
sdegutis wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've found this website very useful: https://archive.org/details/texts My favorite part: It has actual scans of centuries-old books taken from many major libraries (NYPL etc). I can read something printed and published in the 18th/19th centuries, on my iPhone. And I often do.

The question is what will stop working earlier: archive.org or the 18th century book?

Shift the balance: https://archive.org/donate/

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#427

Post by la_barba »

jforberg wrote: post #347
la_barba wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its fine to have an opinion on how things should be, but some of your assertions are not based on facts. >Virtually all major DRM-"protected" works are available on thepiratebay shortly after release. Sometimes before release. "Virtually all Server OSs get hacked/have had security bugs. Nobody should use them to host or store anything." All you're saying is that DRM isn't perfect. Nothing is perfect, and it isn't exa…

> "Virtually all Server OSs get hacked/have had security bugs. Nobody should use them to host or store anything." Your comparison is flawed. Most server installations are not broken into during their lifetime. But it only takes one copy of a movie getting onto thepiratebay to make it accessible to everyone who wants it. So if DRM cannot prevent every attempt at circumvention, it's useless and can only serve to hinder…

>But it only takes one copy of a movie getting onto thepiratebay to make it accessible to everyone who wants it.

Unlocking the DRM on that one movie allows you to pirate that one movie, not all movies. Finding a security bug for one OS allows you to exploit that particular OS.

>So if DRM cannot prevent every attempt at circumvention, it's useless and can only serve to hinder legitimate use of the product.

No, if something even serves as a mild hurdle, it is still beneficial.

>So if DRM cannot prevent every attempt at circumvention, it's useless and can only serve to hinder legitimate use of the product.

https://www.cvedetails.com/top-50-products.php

Given the abundance of hundreds, and in some cases thousands of vulnerabilities, it seems securing any OS is an impossible task. To take smartphones phones as an example, a vast vast majority of phones have had vulnerabilities which let you root/jailbreak them.

>No, I don't. The fact that some people accept the deal doesn't prove that there's nothing wrong with it. In this case, the seller unilaterally went back on the deal without the customers being involved at all.

You do, because I don't accept the argument you made. Your broad claim that DRM == disrespecting consumers doesn't seem to be borne out by the market. So it seems we've reached a bit of an impasse.

>The purpose of DRM is to prevent piracy. This has mostly been a failure.

You have to actually demonstrate that it is a failure. Whats plain to see for anyone is that products like adobe photoshop for e.g. are going from 'little league' DRM to 'major league' DRM + subscription and are making even more money. Its fine to lament at how the world sucks, but its important to be realistic and fact based when doing so.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#428

Post by la_barba »

dredmorbius wrote: post #423
la_barba wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see what point you're trying to make? Microsoft continues to protect all their commercial products with DRM. They clearly see value in doing that.

That the hypothetical case of OS piracy was false, explicitly acknowledged by the creator of the OS in question. Microsoft's DRM on their own software is quite intentionally weak. Enforcement via audits (through its proxy arm, the BSA, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSA_(The_Software_Alliance) ), has been the preferred method.

I hope you realize that "more" vs "less" DRM, is not the same as DRM vs no-DRM. In any case, I don't see anything I can respond to.. so.. thanks for the comment.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#429

Post by la_barba »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #361
la_barba wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is the freedom of the creator to pick a license and method they wish to use to distribute their work. I'm talking about DRM for things which are mostly entertainment - things like movies, games, music, etc. We all have equal freedoms to not support such platforms. I don't follow what point you're trying to make with your gym example. If the gym has some policies which you dislike, you can simply chose to not go th…

Gyms are substitutable, "movies, games, music, etc." are not. Your argument works for e.g. Steam vs. GOG when both carry a particular game, but it doesn't work in general, because a DRMed work is usually DRMed everywhere.

Well, okay, maybe you won't be able to buy a non-DRM version of a game you really like. That is a problem for the creator. If people simply walked out of a situation where they don't agree with the terms, maybe more creators would notice.

Re: “The books will stop working.”

#430

Post by la_barba »

anoncake wrote: post #402
la_barba wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is rather bizarre to see some people feel entitled to content which isn't distributed as per their own personal wishes. A principled person would chose to take his/her business elsewhere and purchase a book on a platform whose ethics they agree with. Not saying I'm some Mother Teresa type.. but I'm against online ads, and I don't run an ad-blocker. I simply don't visit sites which feature blaring in-your-face ads.…

> A principled person would chose to take his/her business elsewhere and purchase a book on a platform whose ethics they agree with. A principled person would follow their own principles which may be different from yours.

Infringing on copyright law to play a game or a movie doesn't quite have the same 'civil disobedience' ring to it as fighting slavery.
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