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Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

nytimes.com

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Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#151

Post by [deleted] »

danharaj wrote: post #145
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Concentration camp" has a specific connotation. Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. Fault Trump with everything that's his fault, but suggesting that this is a precursor to mass graves and genocide is just hyperbole.

> Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide. But, you know, they do have a connotation of being associated with violations of human rights which is exactly what people are alleging about these detention sites. The fact tha…

[deleted]

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#152

Post by [deleted] »

pjc50 wrote: post #112
roenxi wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is easy to complain generally, but is is better to be specific about what ways you think America is not free. Americans still enjoy great freedom of speech and association, for example. No Lèse-majesté in the land of the free. There is a lot of propaganda but that isn't necessarily inconsistent with freedom. The real issue is there is a risk that economically speaking America is less free than China. For all that…

Yesterday's "unfree America" story was the woman who was shot in the stomach and then prosecuted for the death of her unborn child. In Alabama.

[deleted]

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#153

Post by AnthonyMouse »

danharaj wrote: post #145
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Concentration camp" has a specific connotation. Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. Fault Trump with everything that's his fault, but suggesting that this is a precursor to mass graves and genocide is just hyperbole.

> Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide. But, you know, they do have a connotation of being associated with violations of human rights which is exactly what people are alleging about these detention sites. The fact tha…

> No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide.

It still is, because a "concentration camp" even in that sense still isn't just any camp where people are concentrated. It implies internment without charges, which is exactly what isn't happening here -- there is every expectation that there will be a proceeding to determine their immigration status, resulting in either release or deportation and not indefinite internment in violation of habeas corpus.

> But, you know, they do have a connotation of being associated with violations of human rights which is exactly what people are alleging about these detention sites.

Then make that claim and not the other one. If they have no access to soap then assert that as the thing that needs to be fixed -- because at least that can be fixed. How do you make a detention facility not a "concentration camp" under a definition of "concentration camp" that just means any detention facility?

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#154

Post by cmurf »

bluejekyll wrote: post #74
typon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unbelievable how Americans can be so brainwashed about their country's status in the world yet believe that they're completely "free"

America did not elect this administration by a majority of the popular vote. The electoral college did. It’s an artifact of the original founding of the country where there were checks and balances put in place to deny direct democratic rule. It’s been slowly rolled back over many years, but until we get rid of the electoral college, it always has the possibility of ignoring the will of the people.

Federalist 68 applies to any conversation on the original intent of how the Electoral College was supposed to work. Unfortunately, state legislatures long ago perverted this system by making the worst possible people in America the Electors, by law: party loyalists.

By definition a party loyalist is not a deliberative person, as described in Federalist 68. And further, party loyalists are the people most centrally located in bitter partisanship, the very thing that lends itself to "cabal, intrigue, and corruption" referred to as things most to be avoided, in Federalist 68.

We have all permitted this perversion of something that, despite its also racist past, could actually be useful but is instead detrimental. The Electoral College could play a role if we were serious, but Americans right now take their TV shows more seriously.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#155

Post by LMYahooTFY »

wil421 wrote: post #20
pjc50 wrote: post #9

This is the thing that economists have been pointing out for decades: at the country scale, allowing free trade provides productivity benefits to both sides, and restricting it affects both sides. You can't have a trade war without domestic casualties. What's crazier is that the strategy of economically integrating China with the world was a Rebublican economic-liberal one to start with. The plan was to make the rest…

Don’t forget the Republican and Democratic parties kinda did a flip. I’m not sure if Nixon’s 1960s Republican party was the same as it is today. It was certainly starting to head the way it is today in the 1960s.

I hear this referenced constantly but without source.

Trying to find sources on my own has turned up nothing conclusive, nor clear enough to say that a "flip" occurred in any short period.

Does anyone have decent sources for this?

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#156

Post by ridewinter »

adinobro wrote: post #96
tekkk wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well sure American and other companies have tried to gain market share in China, but China has effectively stifled a lot of foreign competitors from entering. So it's not very symmetric free trade with China, therefore giving some justification for this silly trade war. It's understandable though from China's perspective, that they aren't willing to give up important strategic sectors like social media or internet se…

There are stacks of US companies that have made a significant entry into China: * Coke * Starbucks (the largest one in the world is currently in Shanghai) * KFC * McDonalds * Pizza Hut * Domino's Pizza * US movies regularly make as much money in China as they do in the US. * General Motors sells more cars in China than in the US. Have they put in place limits that they are legally allowed to put in place based in WTO…

A wise man once said that all of the business contracts in the world don’t matter if the two sides don’t trust each other. So just claiming to stay within the rules & limits is not enough. Good faith goes a long way.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#157

Post by danharaj »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #153
danharaj wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Calling this a concentration camp is like calling a terminal cancer ward a "death camp" because people go there to die. No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide. But, you know, they do have a connotation of being associated with violations of human rights which is exactly what people are alleging about these detention sites. The fact tha…

> No, it isn't. Concentration camps have existed throughout history and they haven't always been associated with genocide. It still is, because a "concentration camp" even in that sense still isn't just any camp where people are concentrated. It implies internment without charges, which is exactly what isn't happening here -- there is every expectation that there will be a proceeding to determine their immigration st…

> How do you make a detention facility not a "concentration camp" under a definition of "concentration camp" that just means any detention facility?

You might just have to accept that in order to enforce some laws you're going to have to put people in mass detention and you may as well own that instead of trying to get people to not call it what it is because the term for it makes you uncomfortable.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#158

Post by a3n »

roenxi wrote: post #83
typon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unbelievable how Americans can be so brainwashed about their country's status in the world yet believe that they're completely "free"

It is easy to complain generally, but is is better to be specific about what ways you think America is not free. Americans still enjoy great freedom of speech and association, for example. No Lèse-majesté in the land of the free. There is a lot of propaganda but that isn't necessarily inconsistent with freedom. The real issue is there is a risk that economically speaking America is less free than China. For all that…

Ah, the first amendment.

Yes, we do still have freedom of speech and association.

But the govt is attacking freedom of religion through "religious freedom" laws that allow discrimination against people who don't follow Christian behavior, in the opinion of any random Christian.

The president attacks the free press, labeling them traitors and "enemy of the people."

When part of the 1st amendment is under attack, all of it is.

The president says if you plead the 5th, you must be guilty.

The president wants to delay the census until he gets the answer that he wants from the supreme court.

When some of the Bill of Rights, and the Constitution in general, are under attack, then all of it is.

We are at risk of losing what was thought rock solid, and so we are that much less free. We may still be better off than some, but we are slowly losing that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_Unite...

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#159

Post by CapricornNoble »

danharaj wrote: post #117
adventured wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not running a network of concentration camps. A hundred thousand illegal immigrants per month are being caught crossing into the US through the southern border. No other liberal democracy - from Canada to Finland to Japan to Australia - would tolerate such a flood of illegal immigration. Not even remotely close. Canada freaks out when a couple thousand illegal immigrants cross into its territory from the US…

Call a spade a spade. It's a concentration camp because it's a camp where undesirable people are concentrated . The fact that you think it's justified to employ concentration camps is a separate argument.

By your very broad definition, so is a PRISON. Which would mean every country on the planet runs "concentration camps", and render the term meaningless.

Re: Trade War Has Damaged U.S. Chip Industry

#160

Post by danaris »

fatbird wrote: post #102
mistermann wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think an argument could be made that Republicans, or at least conservatives, have now become the defenders of free speech while "the left" seems not just comfortable with but intent on increasing censorship, at least certain kinds. I will note that this isn't a complete slam dunk of an argument, I would say the left in the 60's was motivated more by the general principle of free speech, whereas I would say the righ…

Most here at HN think of the left as wanting more censorship in order to avoid hurtful speech, but that's not generally how the left thinks of it. On the left, the view is that the practice of maximizing freedom of speech by tolerating extreme speech, has the effect of reducing the freedom of expression of the non-extreme, non-powerful constituencies. In other words, protecting freedom of expression by politely toler…

This is exactly correct, but unfortunately, because your first sentence is true, you're getting significantly downvoted.

It is an example of the paradox of tolerance: If a group believes in tolerance, absolutely, to the point that they tolerate intolerance, then over time, those who are intolerant will tend to gain power within the group and the tolerance will be eroded (except, of course, the tolerance of those intolerant beliefs that usurp them).

Absolutism of any kind is generally going to lead to problems in our imperfect, non-absolute world. Free speech maximalism is just one example of that. If we put people and their genuine needs before abstract principles, that will tend to be a better guide for how to make a society that serves everyone—and, indeed, allows the greatest freedom for the greatest number.

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