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US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

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Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#71

Post by refurb »

rat9988 wrote: post #43
mc32 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you can’t think of what would happen if we just let things happen out there? Yes we’re made monumental mistakes like Arab spring and gulf war II. But those would pale compared to what would happen if we just let things go. All those repressed military desires by dictators everywhere suddenly given a green light.

I'm pretty sure countries' citizen as Lybia, Afghanistan, Syria, Irak would be way better without the US.

Maybe in Iraq, but Lybia, Afghanistan and Syria would be even worse without foreign intervention.

Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#72

Post by brlewis »

Circuits wrote: post #70

Our military (US) and military budget is just another cold war era echo which has been propagating for far too long. There are so many alarmist media outlets in this country who 'make their steak' off of fear mongering (looking at you FOX news) and what's more unfortunate is the general public's seeming endless supply of naive assent too their ideals and tactics. It isn't the US governments fault the military industr…

> stop living under the yoke of fear and distraction pumped out by the media machine

If you have a solution that scales up to the population at large I'm all ears.

Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#73

Post by ataturk »

mc32 wrote: post #34
isostatic wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of the world's instability has been caused by the US being unchecked and doing whatever it wanted

And you can’t think of what would happen if we just let things happen out there? Yes we’re made monumental mistakes like Arab spring and gulf war II. But those would pale compared to what would happen if we just let things go. All those repressed military desires by dictators everywhere suddenly given a green light.

I wouldn't say "let things go" but let's face facts: The US has bases all over the world. We occupy dozens of countries for nebulous reasons. If global security is that fragile, when is it ever going to not be?

My second thought is that the US MIC is out for itself. It would be one thing if we had a defense system like the Swiss which I look at as pretty sensibly invested civil defense infrastructure (which, btw, the Swiss are rapidly losing as they forget the lessons of the past). Instead, we spend billions on expensive, fancy technical weapons systems that don't necessarily measure up. For example, the Littoral Combat Ship that has an aluminum hull that cracks in cold water. Or the F35 which has to be one of the biggest aeronautical boondoggles in history. We just keep pouring billions down rat holes because of corporatism. I currently work in the health insurance biz and it's the same tune--billions going in all kinds of odd directions in order to make money but outcomes haven't changed or have gotten worse. But our stock price is great!

Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#74

Post by flexie »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #38

US Military is a bigger insert topic here than as many as insert large number here countries. Whether that topic is economics, or employees, or technology, or any other metric you want to analyze...the US military is large. Edit: It would be more interesting to compare pollution from the military vs other countries or other militaries as a function of their size. Similar problems often arise when comparing states - i…

Actually, I find it surprisingly small when considering how powerful it is.

In terms of men (2.2M active and reserve), combat tanks (6,300), artillery (1,700), war ships (130), submarines (70) and fighter planes (2,400) it’s dwarfed by militaries of the past.

Of course the firepower is much larger nowadays and nuclear weapons also make conventional military play a different role, and the US military - although engaged in several conflicts around the world - is mostly a peace time force, but I still find it amazing that the armies of the WWII era were so much larger.

Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#75

Post by ryanmercer »

brlewis wrote: post #45
mc32 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have to balance that against not preventing instability around the world. What would it look like if China, Russia, Iran and many others were unchecked and we let them do whatever they wanted... Now, the current admin is cutting back on involvement. Some candidates call for more interventionism. That we’re retreating from “our duty” to be international police, essentially. So what is it?

>you have to balance that against not preventing instability around the world You are absolutely right. This statement is as true as saying you have to balance eating lavish restaurant meals 7 nights a week against letting your children starve. Completely true. However, if you're currently eating lavish restaurant meals 7 nights a week, the direction you need to go in toward balance is obvious. Would you support redu…

>Would you support reducing U.S. military spending from 2-3x that of China (the 2nd highest spender), to 1.5x?

China is currently constructing 2 new aircraft carriers (they have 1) with as many as 3 more planned by 2030 based on intel out there.

From 2001-2006 they built at least a dozen new classes of ships, putting 60 more into the water.

They have at least 10 known new ships/subs coming online with some being constructed, some seeing sea trials and some being fitted out.

Etc.

My point is, China is very much building up their military

>China's military salary structure is similar to other countries’. In terms of salary level, China’s level is comparatively low. "For example, a U.S. colonel who has served in the military for 30 years will have a monthly salary of $10,000. However, the salary of a Chinese who has served in the military for 30 years is just 8,000 or 9,000 yuan,” said Zhang.

It's also worth noting China has state owned oil wells, state owned oil refineries, state owned natural gas companies, state owned fuel companies etc which all likely keeps their fuel costs artificially low.

I'm guessing they also don't provide things like the GI Bill to their military personnel and similar benefits that we give to our military personnel.

Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#76

Post by brlewis »

mc32 wrote: post #56
brlewis wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you have to balance that against not preventing instability around the world You are absolutely right. This statement is as true as saying you have to balance eating lavish restaurant meals 7 nights a week against letting your children starve. Completely true. However, if you're currently eating lavish restaurant meals 7 nights a week, the direction you need to go in toward balance is obvious. Would you support redu…

If it were me, I think we need to be able to fend off the largest rivals convincingly. If Russia and China were to enter the fold and be good world citizens and share a common vision and cooperate, then yeah. We only need to be as strong as the combined strength of our nearest rivals.

> We only need to be as strong as the combined strength of our nearest rivals.

Ah, so you want to cut the U.S. military budget in half, then? I guess we're on the same page.

Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#77

Post by Retra »

ssijak wrote: post #35
mc32 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have to balance that against not preventing instability around the world. What would it look like if China, Russia, Iran and many others were unchecked and we let them do whatever they wanted... Now, the current admin is cutting back on involvement. Some candidates call for more interventionism. That we’re retreating from “our duty” to be international police, essentially. So what is it?

I think you are living inside a big bubble. When was the last time China showed military aggresion outside its borders, especialy on the other side of the world? US doing the “checking” around the world left countless people dead for nothing, and a lot of countries ruined. Not to mention trillions od dollars spent on financing that. US complain about Russia meddling with US elections (through 150k worth of Facebook a…

The vast majority of human behavior is hypocrisy if you discard all context and justification for what people do.

Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#78

Post by arethuza »

Circuits wrote: post #70

Our military (US) and military budget is just another cold war era echo which has been propagating for far too long. There are so many alarmist media outlets in this country who 'make their steak' off of fear mongering (looking at you FOX news) and what's more unfortunate is the general public's seeming endless supply of naive assent too their ideals and tactics. It isn't the US governments fault the military industr…

I can recommend The Shadow World: Inside the Global Arms Trade by Andrew Feinstein - mind you I found it quite depressing as the levels of corruption and cynicism that it describes are quite remarkable.

Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#79

Post by devoply »

Circuits wrote: post #70

Our military (US) and military budget is just another cold war era echo which has been propagating for far too long. There are so many alarmist media outlets in this country who 'make their steak' off of fear mongering (looking at you FOX news) and what's more unfortunate is the general public's seeming endless supply of naive assent too their ideals and tactics. It isn't the US governments fault the military industr…

The US military is an extension of its corporations and economic interests. It has nothing to do with the people which are sheepishly manipulated each time to suit whatever agenda the elite need pushed. The complex is a beast that rarely responds to the public unless there is massive pressure usually in response to some price like forced recruitment that the people have to pay to meet its needs.

Re: US military is a bigger polluter than as many as 140 countries

#80

Post by PaulHoule »

Circuits wrote: post #70

Our military (US) and military budget is just another cold war era echo which has been propagating for far too long. There are so many alarmist media outlets in this country who 'make their steak' off of fear mongering (looking at you FOX news) and what's more unfortunate is the general public's seeming endless supply of naive assent too their ideals and tactics. It isn't the US governments fault the military industr…

I used to be a fan of Noam Chomsky and think that the U.S. was a negative force in the world. I can point to plenty of kneecapping and bad policies.

However in 2019 I see the rise of authoritarian states such as China, Russia and their "fellow travelers" and I think that freedom is very much at risk.

Green Party activist Howie Hawkins, for instance, goes to rallies where they want to see NATO demolished but when Russia is carving up the Ukraine like a steak and where trouble is spilling out of Africa and the Middle East into Europe it seems like NATO is more relevant today then ever. I told him that.

Similarly, the "Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists" is a stopped clock that always tells the same time. They are up in arms that the U.S. is adding a "super fuse" to our warheads that will increase their effectiveness against hard targets (e.g. enemy missile silos.) Where are they when Russia and China are developing greatly upgraded missiles, hypersonic weapons, etc?

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