Live data from Hacker News

US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

thedrive.com

251–260 of 277 posts

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You put it well. The problem of of putting energy into projectiles caused a move from kenetic to chemical weapons (missiles). But delivering chemicals to a target is expensive and at some point scaling it up becomes politically dangerous (you cannot just lauch even a conventional icbm without all sorts of risks). Scaling up kenetic weapons ended up with huge battleship guns that did almost as much damage to the ship…

> ...huge battleship guns ... were slow to fire ... I was curious about how fast battleships could actually fire, so I googled around and found a couple stats. On an Iowa class battleship: - Armed with nine 16"/50 caliber Mark 7 guns [1] - Each 16" gun is quoted as having a firing rate of 2 rounds per minute [2] - Each shell weighed between 1900lbs / 865kg and 2700lbs / 1225kg pounds [3] So math says 2 rounds/minute…

A fun fact is you can figure out why battleships became obsolete just by comparing Iowa's guns to more modern systems.

A 16", 2,700 pound AP shell from an Iowa class battleship contains 40.9 pound of high explosives as the payload. A 1900 pound HE shell contains 153.6 lbs. of high explosive payload. The AP shell travels at a velocity of 2,425 fps on average. The HE shell travels at a velocity of 2,615 fps on average. An Iowa class ship traditionally stored powder and shells to fire each of its 9 guns 130 times before needing to be re-supplied. The maximum range of the cannon was 24 miles.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_16-50_mk7.php

By contrast, a Tomahawk cruise missile has a range of 1,550 miles and contains 1,000 pounds of high explosive. An Ohio-class guided missile submarine carries 152 of these on board. A single Ohio-class submarine can put more explosive payload on target than 3 Iowa class battleships firing their entire magazines dry (assuming AP shells), it can unleash its entire devastating salvo in about 2.5 minutes (as contrasted against an hour+ for a battleship), and it can do it from over 64 times the range as the battleship's cannons. Oh also the missiles are guided, and so can actually hit targets at extreme ranges where-as battleship were notoriously inaccurate outside 20 miles. At the Battle of Calabria the battleships on both sides fired a combined total of 335 large caliber shells, to one hit!

Of course the one advantage of the battleship is its shells are travelling on average ~3 times faster than the cruise missile is, and so it's far easier to shoot down a missile than it is a shell. But I hope with the above math you understand why naval planner's response to this was basically "Well if you can shoot down one of my missiles with 50% probability, we'll just fire off 5 at once and we'll still have >95% chance of landing a hit". And unlike with battleship shells, when a single missile hits you you're dead as a dodo - 1000 pounds of HE vs. 40 or 153 pounds for battleship shells.

Even if submarines and airplanes had never been invented, the big gun battleship still would've been rendered obsolete just from missiles alone. Even railguns aren't likely to change this, as we happen to have perfected hypersonic missiles at roughly the same time railguns became practical and HSMs are...I mean basically take all the advantages of a gun, and all the advantages of a missile, and put them into one thing. Hypersonic missiles are amazing/terrifying, and they will be the 'defining weapons' of 21st century naval war.

Also as an aside, can we talk about how damn cool the Ohio class SSGN is?! It's by far the coolest thing the navy currently owns IMO. It can hide in the ocean depths impervious to harm, pop to the surface and fire off 152000 pounds of high explosives, and then retreat to the safety of the ocean darkness again before its enemy even knows what happened. I own a model of it I keep on my desk and it's one of my favorite possessions.

Note: On Los Angeles class submarines the vertical launch tubes can be fired with ~1 second delay per round. So assuming the navy's technology on the Ohio's is still held to the same standard, that's 152 seconds to fire all 152 missiles or 2.5 minutes to fire the whole stock.

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point of order in the definitions here: an explosive projectile is still a kinetic weapon and is not NOT a chemical weapon. A chemical weapon causes chemistry to happen in/on the target: mustard gas, VX nerve gas, etc. This is not my opinion. This is widely accepted and a matter of many international treaties.

I think kinetic or chemical refers to the type of energy that puts the project in motion, from something like a bowstring to rocket propellant.

I fully understand what OP was trying to say. The problem is words. You can think whatever you want. If you want to deal with other people in a shared reality and influence the arc of history, I suggest learning to identify, adopt, and use rigorously defined words as intended, wherever possible, because that frees up your very limited intellectual capabilities to focus on the things you actually want to change.

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You put it well. The problem of of putting energy into projectiles caused a move from kenetic to chemical weapons (missiles). But delivering chemicals to a target is expensive and at some point scaling it up becomes politically dangerous (you cannot just lauch even a conventional icbm without all sorts of risks). Scaling up kenetic weapons ended up with huge battleship guns that did almost as much damage to the ship…

> ...huge battleship guns ... were slow to fire ... I was curious about how fast battleships could actually fire, so I googled around and found a couple stats. On an Iowa class battleship: - Armed with nine 16"/50 caliber Mark 7 guns [1] - Each 16" gun is quoted as having a firing rate of 2 rounds per minute [2] - Each shell weighed between 1900lbs / 865kg and 2700lbs / 1225kg pounds [3] So math says 2 rounds/minute…

> I would not want to be on the receiving end of that!

If things go wrong, you would not want to be on the sending end, either. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#254
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, it's not entirely clear why we're bothering. Do we actually envision shore bombardment as a useful combat modality going forward? IIRC the types of ships that can mount this weapon are the same types that are currently vulnerable to hypersonic anti-ship missiles. All our potential equiv-tech adversaries have those, to my understanding. So wouldn't the railgun only be useful against lower tech opponents? And ag…

There are no hypersonic antiship cruise missiles deployed today. Some ballistic missiles have limited antiship capability and they do travel at hypersonic speeds but there are reasonably effective defenses against them now.

You may find this illuminating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bgaoM6qSV0

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find this invention will solve our problems. Just point at China, fire the gun, and all problems solved. Just kidding, seriously what do we point it at? And what problem will it solve after it's been fired? Also why are we not competing on high speed rail technology? Why do we always have to beat a country with military technology given how completely useless most of it is.

> Also why are we not competing on high speed rail technology? The US competes at the top in dozens of other categories, from aerospace to biotech to software to agriculture to semiconductors to spacetech to medtech. Why should we need to compete in high-speed rail technology? It's the last problem the US has. There's no need to dominate everything - as no nation practically can anyway - just buy Japan's excellent hi…

Three things.

1. I'm talking about public government projects like the space race or international highway system. Not commercial business sectors like biotech, software or agriculture. Typically governments do projects for the good of society or to compete for prestige (which offers no tangible utility) with another country. I'm thinking kill two birds and instead of building a gun they will likely never fire, build a huge public bullet train system that actually benefites society and makes America not look like a giant car mono culture.

2. My mistake, I meant the rail network infrastructure itself not the technology.

3. Not only is there no need for the US to dominate every industry. There is no need for the US to dominate at all for the industry I'm talking about and that is government projects. The rail gun serves a single purpose. Prestige, that's it. With globalization taking over the world today, firing that rail gun at any country is just bad news for everybody and unlikely to happen at all so why build it at all.

Governments should serve utilitarian needs of the people. Governments should not build projects just to one up another country. Seriously who cares if China's GDP surpasses the US... It doesn't matter in the end.

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think kinetic or chemical refers to the type of energy that puts the project in motion, from something like a bowstring to rocket propellant.

I fully understand what OP was trying to say. The problem is words. You can think whatever you want. If you want to deal with other people in a shared reality and influence the arc of history, I suggest learning to identify, adopt, and use rigorously defined words as intended, wherever possible, because that frees up your very limited intellectual capabilities to focus on the things you actually want to change.

[deleted]

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...huge battleship guns ... were slow to fire ... I was curious about how fast battleships could actually fire, so I googled around and found a couple stats. On an Iowa class battleship: - Armed with nine 16"/50 caliber Mark 7 guns [1] - Each 16" gun is quoted as having a firing rate of 2 rounds per minute [2] - Each shell weighed between 1900lbs / 865kg and 2700lbs / 1225kg pounds [3] So math says 2 rounds/minute…

A fun fact is you can figure out why battleships became obsolete just by comparing Iowa's guns to more modern systems. A 16", 2,700 pound AP shell from an Iowa class battleship contains 40.9 pound of high explosives as the payload. A 1900 pound HE shell contains 153.6 lbs. of high explosive payload. The AP shell travels at a velocity of 2,425 fps on average. The HE shell travels at a velocity of 2,615 fps on average.…

>And unlike with battleship shells, when a single missile hits you you're dead as a dodo - 1000 pounds of HE vs. 40 or 153 pounds for battleship shells.

I'm curious if this would be true for a heavily armored target like a battleship, though. AFAIK no modern missile is designed to penetrate ~12 inches of hardened steel armor, as no targets have that kind of armor any more.

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#258
post #155

Get the projectile up to mach 33 and it can shoot satellites out of orbit from the ground.

It's going to be interesting to see non-state actors get their hands on a railgun. Possibly handed by a state actor, of course.

Same applies to nukes, and now I'm scared

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#259
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fun fact is you can figure out why battleships became obsolete just by comparing Iowa's guns to more modern systems. A 16", 2,700 pound AP shell from an Iowa class battleship contains 40.9 pound of high explosives as the payload. A 1900 pound HE shell contains 153.6 lbs. of high explosive payload. The AP shell travels at a velocity of 2,425 fps on average. The HE shell travels at a velocity of 2,615 fps on average.…

>And unlike with battleship shells, when a single missile hits you you're dead as a dodo - 1000 pounds of HE vs. 40 or 153 pounds for battleship shells. I'm curious if this would be true for a heavily armored target like a battleship, though. AFAIK no modern missile is designed to penetrate ~12 inches of hardened steel armor, as no targets have that kind of armor any more.

On 10 November 1942 the Vichy French Battleship opened fire on Allied landing vessels in Casablanca after being re-floated following her sinking on 8 November. TBF Avengers were dispatched to deal with her, but they lacked AP bombs and were relying on 1000lb general purpose bombs instead. Jean Bart was struck by one such bomb on her starboard side toward the rear:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Jean_Bar...

And she was hit again near the bow:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7024/27032831370_9e28e3b6bd_o...

The rearward hit would go on to sink the battleship, this time permanently.

On 22 May 1941 the HMS Warspite was struck by a 500 lb from German bombers, and had her side ripped open and had to immediately steam home least she possibly tear her own guts out. It would take 4 months of repairs before she was ready to be sent back into the fight.

In both instances we're looking at about 1/10th the payload of explosives of a Tomahawk crippling or sinking a well-armored battleship with 1 or 2 lucky hits. The reason is because WW2 battleships employed "all or nothing" armor, where some parts of the ship were extremely well protected (turret, belt) and others had extremely thin armor - which meant even a non-AP bomb could sink a battleship if it was simply big enough boom to rip the ship open in these non-armored areas.

A Tomahawk is guided and carries a very big warhead, so assuming it was programmed to know where the armor on the ship it was fighting had a weak point I wouldn't be surprised if it was able to cripple or kill an Iowa class vessel in just one hit.

Also we do actually have plenty of modern missiles able to penetrate 12 inches of hardened steel armor. The AGM-65 Maverick has penetration against rolled homogeneous steel armor of between 1000 to 1500 mm, or between 40 inches and 60 inches of penetration. It's designed to kill tanks that are using modern composite armor, and needs that level of penetration to do its job. Against simple steel armor, of the kind on a WW2 battleship, it would slice through it like a knife through butter.

Re: US Navy's Railgun Now Undergoing Tests in New Mexico

#260
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And unlike with battleship shells, when a single missile hits you you're dead as a dodo - 1000 pounds of HE vs. 40 or 153 pounds for battleship shells. I'm curious if this would be true for a heavily armored target like a battleship, though. AFAIK no modern missile is designed to penetrate ~12 inches of hardened steel armor, as no targets have that kind of armor any more.

On 10 November 1942 the Vichy French Battleship opened fire on Allied landing vessels in Casablanca after being re-floated following her sinking on 8 November. TBF Avengers were dispatched to deal with her, but they lacked AP bombs and were relying on 1000lb general purpose bombs instead. Jean Bart was struck by one such bomb on her starboard side toward the rear: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/J…

Right, but those bombs may have been designed with armor piercing in mind. Battleships' main batteries fired both AP and HE shells, the latter being unable to penetrate heavily armored targets.

I take your point re the Maverick. But you do need to make a big hole in a battleship to actually sink it. To kill a tank you just need to make a small hole and spray the insides.

A 16" AP shell weighs about as much as a Tomahawk and is traveling much faster. Sure, it has a smaller charge, but also a lot more kinetic energy. In fact, the charge itself was irrelevant to the shell's armor piercing capacity, as AP shells were fused to explode after the armor was penetrated.

Post reply on HN