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Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

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Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#181

Post by ilikehurdles »

cbsks wrote: post #5

You can view your reCaptcha V3 score here: https://recaptcha-demo.appspot.com/recaptcha-v3-request-scor... I get .7 on my iPhone, I’m guessing that my liberal use of Firefox containers and the cookie auto-delete extension on my desktop will give me a much lower score and cause me to have to jump through extra hoops at websites that implement it, just like the reCaptcha V2 does. Edit: I also got 0.7 on Firefox with st…

With desktop Chrome I get a 0.3. My browser sends Do Not Track, has PrivacyBadger extension, and has that useless google-profile-in-the-browser feature disabled.

Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#182

Post by pnw_hazor »

Liquix wrote: post #165
baq wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they have a patent on giving out unbeatable challenges when the computer thinks it's dealing with a 'malicious agent'. https://patents.google.com/patent/US9407661B2/en

So if you're running the wrong combination of addons/VPNs/browser you're denied access to half the web because Big G says so? And now they're aggressively pushing sysadmins to install silent data harvesting scripts on every page of their sites? WTF more will it take to get people interested in breaking up these monopolies?

I hear Google is a fun place to work and that they pay well.

Until software developers care -- nothing will happen.

Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#183

Post by dbtx »

danShumway wrote: post #18
cbsks wrote: post #5

You can view your reCaptcha V3 score here: https://recaptcha-demo.appspot.com/recaptcha-v3-request-scor... I get .7 on my iPhone, I’m guessing that my liberal use of Firefox containers and the cookie auto-delete extension on my desktop will give me a much lower score and cause me to have to jump through extra hoops at websites that implement it, just like the reCaptcha V2 does. Edit: I also got 0.7 on Firefox with st…

With Firefox fingerprint resisting turned on and with Ublock Origin/UMatrix, I get a score of 0.1. And I'm not even on a VPN; I'm sure on my home network I'd have an even lower score. To me, it feels like Google's entire strategy behind reCaptcha is to make it harder to protect your privacy. We've basically given up on the idea that there are tasks only humans can do, and to me V3 feels like Google openly saying, "Yo…

> it feels like Google's entire strategy behind reCaptcha is to make it harder to protect your privacy

For the irony, I'm still logged into GMail and it still works perfectly, as basic HTML, even with google.com forbidden to run scripts. But it's the flippin' reCaptchas all over the place that make me temp-allow google.com, and then a reload later, temp-allow gstatic.com and reload again. Only then I get to use someone else's site normally, and I can disallow again... it's irritating. And then, this.

BTW that page plainly says the scores are samples and not related to reality. Refresh a few times and watch it change. 0.3, 0.7, and 0.9 seem to be my lucky numbers. I see everyone else getting those and 0.1.

Please stop reading things into it oh it's too late. Maybe they suddenly started seeing this page hundreds of times in the referrer and added that bit afterward, I don't know.

Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#184

Post by overtlypensive »

braindead_in wrote: post #166

What about Google Analytics? They already have all my browsing history. reCAPTCHA data is not even as detailed as GA.

Don't 'whatabout' us and change the subject, we're talking about reCAPTCHA now. If you must know, the key difference is that you can block Analytics and still use the site, but are denied access if you block CAPTCHAs.

Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#185

Post by chenshuiluke »

cbsks wrote: post #5

You can view your reCaptcha V3 score here: https://recaptcha-demo.appspot.com/recaptcha-v3-request-scor... I get .7 on my iPhone, I’m guessing that my liberal use of Firefox containers and the cookie auto-delete extension on my desktop will give me a much lower score and cause me to have to jump through extra hoops at websites that implement it, just like the reCaptcha V2 does. Edit: I also got 0.7 on Firefox with st…

I get 0.9 on my Firefox

Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#186

Post by btown »

seieste wrote: post #74

There are government services, such as the USPTO, that rely on Google reCAPTCHA. The new reCAPTCHA has made it difficult for me to access documents, and sometimes they think that I'm a bot and thus deny me access entirely. Does the government realize the consequences of this? Both that it pushes users to use Chromium-based browsers, and that they're helping to solidify a company that already has a near monopoly in th…

To be fair, government at all levels did the same for Adobe by mandating that things be done in the PDF file format. Consistency of government operations sometimes requires that certain private companies be preferred vendors, and of course there's going to be a snowball effect there as big players get increasingly larger shares of available funds. Every government in history has had a government-industrial complex with winners and losers - some of this boils down to human nature.

Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#187

Post by bduerst »

dao- wrote: post #149
dessant wrote: post #126

Google has been doing the same with reCAPTCHA v2 [1]. They are aware of the legal risk of outright blocking users from accessing services, so reCAPTCHA v3 contains no user facing UI, Google merely makes a suggestion in the form of a user score, so the responsibility to delay or block access and the legal liability that comes with it falls on websites. reCAPTCHA v2 is superseded by v3 because it presents a broader opp…

I'm not sure there's a significant legal difference in the end. If someone could demonstrate that alternative browsers regularly get a lower score than Chrome, that seems like a pretty good antitrust case. Or were you referring to the risk that individuals would sue Google for getting blocked from random, potentially essential websites?

Not GP but they most likely meant the second. The V2 prompt blocks people from accessing services, which could be construed as damages at scale.

You do bring up a good point about the V3 being potential antitrust issue, but that has always been a potential problem even with earlier versions of recaptcha. With V3, it's also deferring the liability to the webmaster. The action that the website takes with the score is up to them - in the end it's just a number.

Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#188

Post by pdimitar »

cbsks wrote: post #5

You can view your reCaptcha V3 score here: https://recaptcha-demo.appspot.com/recaptcha-v3-request-scor... I get .7 on my iPhone, I’m guessing that my liberal use of Firefox containers and the cookie auto-delete extension on my desktop will give me a much lower score and cause me to have to jump through extra hoops at websites that implement it, just like the reCaptcha V2 does. Edit: I also got 0.7 on Firefox with st…

iPhone with a good (not amazing) adblocker: 0.7

Safari macOS with the same adblocker: 0.7

Firefox macOS with a lot of adblockers: 0.1

Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#189

Post by judge2020 »

amirhirsch wrote: post #147
judge2020 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> earns website owners money > an open decentralized protocol for human review that runs on the Ethereum blockchain. Is this basically a JS crypto miner?

We provide dataset annotation services and pay out to sites based on what companies pay us.

I guess the big question is accuracy -

If you have a brand new dataset, couldn't bots assess the first few thousand images randomly and get through (since there is little or no basis for what is an accurate selection)? And if they do, how would that affect future real human selections (assuming it learns over time what selections are accurate)?

Another concern is that it's very likely that Google's existing Cloud vision ML could handle most classification challenges your clients are trying to train (since you're basically working against a much wider-deployed mechanical turk dataset, recaptcha). High-profile websites (such as ecommerce sites) may have attackers (such as those with stolen CC's) willing to spend the money needed to run all of your images through Cloud Vision. So I guess my question is: are other data points collected to prevent bots from getting through?

I would understand if you can't answer some of these as they may fall under "trade secret" territory.

Re: Google’s new reCAPTCHA has a dark side

#190

Post by skybrian »

danShumway wrote: post #18
cbsks wrote: post #5

You can view your reCaptcha V3 score here: https://recaptcha-demo.appspot.com/recaptcha-v3-request-scor... I get .7 on my iPhone, I’m guessing that my liberal use of Firefox containers and the cookie auto-delete extension on my desktop will give me a much lower score and cause me to have to jump through extra hoops at websites that implement it, just like the reCaptcha V2 does. Edit: I also got 0.7 on Firefox with st…

With Firefox fingerprint resisting turned on and with Ublock Origin/UMatrix, I get a score of 0.1. And I'm not even on a VPN; I'm sure on my home network I'd have an even lower score. To me, it feels like Google's entire strategy behind reCaptcha is to make it harder to protect your privacy. We've basically given up on the idea that there are tasks only humans can do, and to me V3 feels like Google openly saying, "Yo…

It seems totally reasonable that Google knows you're not a bot if you have a Google account. This isn't the problem, although it hides the problem.

The problem is that they aren't trying harder for users who aren't logged in.

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