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How Bad Are Things? (2015)

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Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#41

Post by dsfyu404ed »

ijpoijpoihpiuoh wrote: post #18

The author probably knows this, but I think a lot of these bad things are dependent one one another. Probably all of them. Poverty (food stamps) probably correlates strongly with all of abuse, especially physical, pain, prison, cognitive disability, other disability, schizophrenia, and old age. Dementia is heavily associated with old age as well. Which is not to say that things are great, but I think the badness is f…

Agreed. Problems like this compound like there's no tomorrow.

As someone who lives somewhere that's very blue collar and works somewhere very rich and white collar the difference is incredibly stark.

Where I live you see the signs that some people have problems, people living out of cars, the occasional mobility scooter avoiding the potholes on the sidewalk, houses will go unrepaired for long periods of time you stand in line to check out at some store and there's fat people, the cashier sounds like she smokes a pack a day and you can't tell if she's 30 or 50, the police don't blink twice when someone's smoking weed in public or rolling a stop in a rusted out 30yo shitbox, people bitch about not having enough money for all the shit you have to do in life, Walmart is just another place to shop.

Then I go to work and there's not a single car over 15yo sitting in the gridlock, there's women carrying brand name shopping bags and out jogging on the sidewalk, ever lawn is meticulously maintained and every window and door is cleaned daily, nobody smokes, nobody is overweight, nobody has regrettable tattoos, nobody is carrying beer while riding a bike, bored cops feel the need to check out anyone who dare drive something that's economically out of place through the wrong neighborhood on a weekend (the help don't come on Sunday), people bitch about other people using plastic straws and bags, Walmart is regarded as someone you don't go if you can avoid it, etc.

What bothers me isn't that the urban wealthy (definition of wealthy to include upper middle) don't understand the problems the urban and rural poor (no, I don't live in the boondocks, I commute in from a small rust-belt-esque city) but that they act like they do and that they have all the solutions.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#42

Post by asdf21 »

throwayEngineer wrote: post #12

What should humanity do? The big hitters are Drug addiction and Chronic Pain. I don't have a solution for drug addiction, but I can't blame our generation for not finding a solution. No generation has, and given caffeine addiction, it's extremely hard for others to help with. Chronic Pain needs to end. Between Doctors of Physical Therapy and medications, there are little reason for people to be experiencing chronic p…

Yeah, honestly this article is more of an indictment of the medical fields complete inability to solve most issues, even fairly common ones.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#43

Post by SolaceQuantum »

DisruptiveDave wrote: post #32
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

In my experience this is very true upon simply becoming the kind of person who is open to listening to others. The vast majority of people you've run into have had huge difficulties in life, or are affected by people close to them who have huge difficulties in their lives. People tell me I'm a wonderful listener due to my lack of judgement on their problems (more than once, people, including my therapist, tell me I'd…

> but really I've internalized the idea that everyone is living a life less than what they hoped their life would be to various extents and that there is also a near infinite combination of ways to achieve this effect such that no one can be dismissed for their misery in any respect without also dismissing the "legitimate" misery of a wide swath of people. There's a downside to this logic, one of the enabling sort. I…

I only said it's important to be able to listen and acknowledge that people are troubled. That a person is troubled and therefore abusive to others is just an extension of that. I don't understand this downside you're explaining.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#44

Post by kazagistar »

DisruptiveDave wrote: post #32
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #6

In my experience this is very true upon simply becoming the kind of person who is open to listening to others. The vast majority of people you've run into have had huge difficulties in life, or are affected by people close to them who have huge difficulties in their lives. People tell me I'm a wonderful listener due to my lack of judgement on their problems (more than once, people, including my therapist, tell me I'd…

> but really I've internalized the idea that everyone is living a life less than what they hoped their life would be to various extents and that there is also a near infinite combination of ways to achieve this effect such that no one can be dismissed for their misery in any respect without also dismissing the "legitimate" misery of a wide swath of people. There's a downside to this logic, one of the enabling sort. I…

Sure, the idea that the right solution is always sympathy and material assistance is a bit reductionistic.

But the idea that what's best for people is always tough love and a job is just as reductionistic and oversimplified.

And at scale, neither blanket solution is perfectly effective, but one at least leans towards kindness.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#45

Post by cheerlessbog »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #25

I loved the 20 person simulation the author used. His point about universal suffering reminds me of another point by Sam Harris: "Everyone you know is practically drowning in suffering" SH brings up this point to contextualize our own suffering. It's hard for us to socialize with others and make connections, but if we consider other peoples' plights and struggles, it gives us more perspective and may aid us to talk,…

I do the same! If someone gets angry with me I (try to) feel compassionate - they must be late for a job interview, their partner yelled at them at breakfast etc. It completely changes my perspective - the worst thing that happened to me that morning is someone cut me off.

I've taken this further and I try to harvest waves in my commute. I consciously let people merge, etc and I'm always glad if I get a wave. I aim to get one on every trip. I hand them out too.

Its increased my mental wellbeing by the time I get to work.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#46

Post by SolaceQuantum »

asdf21 wrote: post #38
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, your interpretation of CBT is not correct. I understand that the first step of CBT is to analyze a patient as a whole to decide what behaviors need to be adjusted. This requires recognizing that trauma happened and its effect on the behavior of the person. Is this incorrect?

You identify goals and problematic beliefs and behaviors that impinge on the patient's ability to meet those goals. You can "recognize" that trauma occurred without analyzing it in depth.

Can you explain to me what you believe I am saying? I don't understand how your conclusions follow from my language. Most specifically, I do not understand where the alternative to dismissal is in-depth analysis.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#47

Post by TeMPOraL »

apo wrote: post #19

> I work in a wealthy, mostly-white college town consistently ranked one of the best places to live in the country. I wonder to what extent the setting in which the author works selects for people who will feel isolated/regretful and therefore develop the kinds of problems s/he encounters. > The town where I practice psychiatry is mostly white and mostly wealthy. That doesn’t save it. The underlying assumption is tha…

> The underlying assumption is that white and wealthy must not be worse off than the alternative.

It's less an assumption and more a nod towards the meme of white male privilege - the most popular case of “You’re a Group X member, so stop pretending like you have real problems.” on Tumblr, and on the Internet in general.

> But what if the environment itself creates problems that less affluent environments don't?

It probably does. Scott touches this in the paragraph that starts with: "This is also why I am wary whenever people start boasting about how much better we’re doing than back in the bad old days.", but he doesn't expand on it. However, it reminds me of another of his articles, "Burdens"[0], which expands on this more in context of people suffering from depression.

> There can be no regret without choice. The more money you have, the more real choices you get to make. And the more ways you can come to regret those choices.

Caveat: not all (or even most) misery comes from regret; moreover, this line of thinking applies more to society at large than individuals. For instance, if you're born in a developed world, into a family that embraced urbanization, it's quite likely that through no fault of your own, you won't get much care from the family in your old age and end up in care of strangers or alone.

--

[0] - https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/burdens/

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#48

Post by cheerlessbog »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #41
ijpoijpoihpiuoh wrote: post #18

The author probably knows this, but I think a lot of these bad things are dependent one one another. Probably all of them. Poverty (food stamps) probably correlates strongly with all of abuse, especially physical, pain, prison, cognitive disability, other disability, schizophrenia, and old age. Dementia is heavily associated with old age as well. Which is not to say that things are great, but I think the badness is f…

Agreed. Problems like this compound like there's no tomorrow. As someone who lives somewhere that's very blue collar and works somewhere very rich and white collar the difference is incredibly stark. Where I live you see the signs that some people have problems, people living out of cars, the occasional mobility scooter avoiding the potholes on the sidewalk, houses will go unrepaired for long periods of time you stan…

Do the people in that second group consider themselves happy and fortunate?

In some poor areas people have particularly strong social ties - in part because they haven't moved to the area. That can have real value.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#49

Post by DisruptiveDave »

kazagistar wrote: post #44
DisruptiveDave wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but really I've internalized the idea that everyone is living a life less than what they hoped their life would be to various extents and that there is also a near infinite combination of ways to achieve this effect such that no one can be dismissed for their misery in any respect without also dismissing the "legitimate" misery of a wide swath of people. There's a downside to this logic, one of the enabling sort. I…

Sure, the idea that the right solution is always sympathy and material assistance is a bit reductionistic. But the idea that what's best for people is always tough love and a job is just as reductionistic and oversimplified. And at scale, neither blanket solution is perfectly effective, but one at least leans towards kindness.

Of course, we agree there. Re: your final sentence, what I'm actually saying here is that this version of "kindness" may be actively harming some people in the long run. But because humans are generally bad at long-term thinking, we follow our instincts (i.e. "make this person feel immediately better any way possible in this immediate moment"). So, "kindness" isn't necessarily kind in these situations. Your desire to help is betrayed by your mind. Your actions are harmful. Think about that.

Re: How Bad Are Things? (2015)

#50

Post by nradov »

apo wrote: post #19

> I work in a wealthy, mostly-white college town consistently ranked one of the best places to live in the country. I wonder to what extent the setting in which the author works selects for people who will feel isolated/regretful and therefore develop the kinds of problems s/he encounters. > The town where I practice psychiatry is mostly white and mostly wealthy. That doesn’t save it. The underlying assumption is tha…

Divorce is less common among affluent couples.
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