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FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

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Re: FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

#151

When the Boeing CEO had his press conference in April, he said "we've confirmed that the MCAS system as originally designed did meet our design and safety analysis criteria and our certification criteria."[1] I yelled at the screen "you know that means the criteria are flawed , right? If the procedures didn't catch this mistake, that means there are other mistakes that weren't caught!" A flabbergasted reporter then a…

You can't be serious! Did you literally yell those words at the screen?! That's pure madness.

This is Sparta, after all.

Re: FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

#152
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The constraint is the FAA would see it as a new aircraft and therefore have to certify a new airframe. The very in-depth review the FAA is currently doing on the MAX was the expensive (time and money) Boeing sought to avoid.

In hindsight, the in-depth reviews sound like a good idea in all circumstances. Certainly the answer is not to not do them!

Obviously this is not a great example, but with limited resources they will obviously need to divide them appropriately.

They can't do an in-depth forensic analysis of everything without unlimited money.

Re: FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

#153
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem with the airframe? What's the problem with the larger engine nacelle causing a different pitching moment? I've yet to read either of those violate any portion of FAR 25. There is still an open question whether the MAX should have or will have a separate type certificate from other 737's, thereby requiring pilots of a type rating to fly the MAX, thereby requiring full disclosure and training on all…

I wish I had a more authoritative source, but this matches my understanding: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19512161 As a side note, it’s really unfortunate that we won’t get an NTSB-level (both in detail and widespread respect for the organization) report on what went wrong and how it happened. I’m not sure the Ethiopian and Indonesian authorities will really (be able to) dig into MCAS and all the details of i…

The NTSB will issue a report. It's an American made airplane involved in an accident, so they are required to investigate. They just don't have primary jurisdiction over the investigation, per ICAO rules.

Re: FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

#154
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root problem is the culture at Boeing and the FAA has shifted from safety first to profit first. The investigative reporting from The Seattle Times[0] indicates that safety engineers were pressured to avoid delays to rush out a competitor to the A320. Furthermore, their safety analysis was based on flawed assumptions to meet an artificial constraint of not requiring pilot simulator training in order to appease th…

> The root problem is the culture at Boeing and the FAA has shifted from safety first to profit first. So the same problem that pervades society everywhere now? I’m not sure if that wasn’t the case before, but it feels to me that people previously wanted to make lots of money by building great products, and they’ve just left the ‘building great products’ part behind.

Despite the 737 Max fiasco, airplanes today are far safer than ever before. Since 1970, annual deaths have been cut by >80%, while air traffic has increased by a factor of 10.

Cars have seen similar improvements. So have food hygiene, workplace safety, and most any measurable safety record I can think of.

Re: FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

#155
post #83

I made a post about three months ago ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19578201 ) that my main fear with the 737 Max was that they rushed the plane into production and more mistakes were made than with just the MCAS system. Unfortunately, that seems to be the case. I doubt Boeing will ever convince me that enough "patches" have been made to make the plane safe to fly on.

If after all of this the much more knowledgeable pilots are willing to get on the thing and fly it, I'd be comfortable getting in the back.

Or, the pilots will fly it because they want to keep their jobs.

Re: FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

#157
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asking because I legitimately don't know: was the FAA failure here more attributable to the agency, or the funding (and therefore manpower*expertise) available to it?

If you work in a place where there is not enough funding for your job to do it safely and people may day, you need to walk away.

I think that attitude is part of the problem. If you're competent, it's usually much easier to find a new job than it is to take on entrenched cultural and funding problems that create risks. This further entrenches the problems by driving out dissenters, and if you work for a regulator, the 'creative destruction' of the free market can't fix it either.

Re: FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The root problem is the culture at Boeing and the FAA has shifted from safety first to profit first. The investigative reporting from The Seattle Times[0] indicates that safety engineers were pressured to avoid delays to rush out a competitor to the A320. Furthermore, their safety analysis was based on flawed assumptions to meet an artificial constraint of not requiring pilot simulator training in order to appease th…

Fukushima? That doesn't belong on the list. There is some limit to any engineering decision. Complaining about MCAS is totally reasonable, but it would be unreasonable to argue "The Air Max is not safe because if I hit it with enough Stingray missiles it won't fly anymore." Like, yeah? No kidding? Fukushima was designed to survive the earthquake, and it did, it just wasn't designed to survive the earthquake and also…

Fukushima survived the earthquake and even survived the tsunami. The generator got wiped out, but even that wasn't what ultimately led to the disaster. It was that the battery backup eventually ran out of power (not unexpected) and the connectors for recharging it were old and of a format that isn't used any more. There was no way of recharging the battery backup and so the pumps eventually failed.

It's one of those problems where there are literally a million things that could go wrong and since the emergency system is not used normally, it's easy to overlook a critical problem.

So I agree with you. Fukushima was not a design error -- or at least not a design error that could have been reasonably fixed at the time that the reactor was originally designed. It was an error in maintenance. Obviously better to have a design where loss of power doesn't cause a melt down, but I don't think that these were available when Fukushima was built. CANDU reactors existed at that time, but I think they were still considered experimental. Pickering came online in 1971, so basically at the same time as Fukushima. I'm not familiar with other passive designs, so possibly someone else can make an observation.

But basically, as far as I can tell, Fukushima was a reasonably normal nuclear power plant for the time it was designed. The Air Max seems to have suffered from problems because of design decisions that are not considered normal.

Re: FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

#159
post #2

I wonder if they're just now finding new things by simply running the software in a simulator, what more will they find, and what does this say to their continued assurances as to the safety of this plane?

I think there are several factors at play. First of all, the 737 MAX is getting scrutinized extremely thoroughly now. Whatever went wrong with the original certification, authorities are looking with extra attention so they are not missing anything this time.

Then I think, that as a consequence of the analysis of the two crashes, in general a better understanding of certain flight states has been reached. In the light of this better understanding, other bugs might be discovered which previously have been missed.

Re: FAA Finds New Risk on 737 Max, Orders Boeing to Make Changes

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it could have been quite easily by simply siting the backup generators above ground. That was a stupid design error. Tsunamis are not unknown in Japan after all.

I refrain from using “simply” or “just” unless I am the person expected to design or fix the problem. Ahead of time. Saying after a disaster caused by the most powerful earthquake ever recorded in Japan[0] that the solution was “simply” to do some coincidentally simple-sounding thing is not credible. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Tōhoku_earthquake_and_t...

Yeah, this is something that I think doesn't really resonate with people well. The reactor site is 25 meters above sea level. I'm not exactly sure how high the generators were, but they were well above the level that experts thought was safe at the time. The earthquake was a 1 in 1000 year event and so there was no data on record to help them model the resultant tsunami. In the years following the tsunami, the way people modelled waves radically changed based on the new data.

There are a couple of caveats. First, there were markers saying that an historic tsunami had come in much higher than models would have predicted. However, the are very old. It's just a rock stuck in the ground with some writing on it. Stuff like that is all over Japan (there are lots of markers around where I live -- I don't think anybody pays any attention to them at all. Probably we should, but usually they just mark boring stuff ;-) ). It's like seeing a roman road marker in Europe. Interesting, but not really note worthy. It's only after the tsunami that people saw the markers and said, "Holy cow. There's a marker here showing that a tsunami came up this far". Even then it's a far cry from seeing that to saying that we need to invalidate all our wave building models.

Secondly, I think there is some evidence that in a few years preceding the tsunami that researchers were getting worried that their wave models were not correct. I think it's even the case that nuclear plant companies were aware of this. When I first moved to Japan in 2007, there used to be a section of the Meteorological Agency of Japan that showed, among other things, a map of the farthest in a tsunami would theoretically go for all parts of Japan. It also listed maximum wave size for every single place along the coast. It noted places where sea walls were not high enough and estimated worst case damages and numbers of casualties. Around about 2009 it disappeared. I tried to find out where it went and the response I got was that it needed to be updated and that it would return at some point in the future. Of course, it never came back. At the same time, I've heard that literally a few years before the Tohoku earthquake that there was serious debate about whether or not the wave models were correct. However, I think it's pretty clear that in 1967 when they started construction at Fukushima they had absolutely no idea that they were building in a potentially unsafe area.

It really sucks and I think it's fair to say that as humans we probably have too much hubris when it comes to our science. That fact that you have no reasonable way of knowing that you are making a mistake doesn't mitigate the problems that result from that mistake.

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