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HTML is the Web

petelambert.com

271–280 of 341 posts

Re: HTML is the Web

#271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so happy with it, since I'm tired of trying to figure out which domains to allow javascript from when practically every page has a list of a dozen or more. I'm tired of trying to run pages that don't work with any of the browsers I have access to on linux, despite html being a standard. The whole paradigm seems broken to me. It just feels like a monumental kludge.

> any of the browsers I have access to on linux I use linux as well and I have yet to find a webpage that doesn't work with Firefox and Brave. Maybe you shouldn't block javascript and instead block trackers and ads. There are a lot of tools to do that like uBlock Origin, pi-hole, privacy badger etc. Javascript is used by pretty much all websites today to do mostly other stuff than tracking. Why are you blocking it if…

> [not] block javascript and instead block trackers and ads

That sounds like it would be great if it were even possible. What about the million times that someone relies on ajax.googleapis.com and forces me to either allow it or walk away? Am I really supposed to believe that Google isn't logging my visit, each and every time I get a script from there to restore the functionality to or even put text into someone's page?

And then, what will we do about any original domain owners (hypothetically) cooperating with them by hosting such scripts in order to go under the uBlock radar and keep getting paid? What about sites that intentionally host and run whatever malicious scripts themselves? Right now it is merely convenient that we can often choose (correctly) to run or block based on URLs alone, and I don't expect that to last.

I just admitted to everyone that if there are blocking mechanisms which work around other bits besides URLs, I haven't heard of them. I just admitted to myself that I have no real reason to think that it's even enough, and I might be just punishing myself and making everything needlessly difficult-- for my own little privacy theater.

I suppose that unless uBlock or Pi-Hole can (someday) analyze every script in every page (hopefully in sub-second time), and determine whether it is cosmetic or mandatory or exploitative or malicious based on nothing but the code and the context, we lose anyway.

Re: HTML is the Web

#272
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to disagree, but I guess the real problem is that webpages on the internet are being forced to serve both purposes. Paradigm 1 - interconnected, hyperlinked web of text-and-content-based documents: open, accessible, amenable to indexing and tooling and so forth. Paradigm 2 - delivery vehicle for cross-platform, full-featured, somewhat-security-sandboxed, applications. I agree with the article that it's s…

Paradigm 1's security/privacy (WebRTC and webttorrent ip leaking, canvas finger printing) are being compromised in sake of striving for fancy stuff in Paradigm 2. Browser vendors (Firefox, Chrome, Brave) please get your act together to prevent https://nothingprivate.ml

For what its worth, I just tried this on Firefox 67.0.4 and it didn't work. It couldn't find the name I typed after I loaded from a private window.

Re: HTML is the Web

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are not able or willing to provide a safe "native" sandbox completely uncoupled from curated app stores. Apple is going down this route with code signing and granular permissions with Macintosh applications that don’t have to be part of the Mac App Store and there is still whining from geeks that this is leading t…

Well, I remember people warning that having an official Android Market would make distributing via side loading not a viable option... Lo and behold, these days Fortnite gets criticized for being delivered via an .apk because it's "unsafe" !

It was unsafe.

Edit: Corrected Link

https://www.cnet.com/news/fortnites-battle-royale-with-andro...

Re: HTML is the Web

#274
post #2

Nobody is claiming HTML is not necessary. It's just not sufficient.

And CSS. Not sufficient for what? If you want to make a full-fledged program with a weird custom interface instead of a website, maybe don't try to use the browser as a virtual machine?

Re: HTML is the Web

#275
> I’m a ‘frontend of the frontend’ kind of guy. My expertise is in HTML and CSS,

There are 2 different things: documents and applications. These days you can find IDEs running in the browsers, excel spreadsheets, terminals and all other things which are not HTML documents. Yes, you cannot use to style an output of terminal `$ tree ` command. This is why you see soup when you examine HTML of the web terminal output.

As web-assembly becomes more mature, I expect developers to abandoned the HTML/CSS scene and leave it to HTML document template designers so there again can be a clear understanding when you have to use HTML.

Re: HTML is the Web

#276
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

br is an empty element ( https://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/dtds.html#a_dtd_XHTML-1.0-Stric... ), so should work fine

In XHTML. No browsers treat documents (no matter the doctype) as XHTML unless the proper MIME type is used. Without it your XHTML markup is treated as SGML application (which HTML is) and thus means completely different thing. See http://jkorpela.fi/html/empty.html for the details.

is syntactically correct HTML5. So is
, but that's beside the point.

From https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#start-tags

> 6. Then, if the element is one of the void elements, or if the element is a foreign element, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS character (/). This character has no effect on void elements, but on foreign elements it marks the start tag as self-closing.

From https://html.spec.whatwg.org/#void-elements

> Void elements: area, base, br, col, embed, hr, img, input, link, meta, param, source, track, wbr

The problem with making the SOLIDUS optional for so-called void elements is that the set of void elements isn't finite across time. A new one could be added in the future, which means any document which relies on implicit syntactic behavior requires an updated parser simply to get the most basic AST.

XML and XHTML formalized a distinction between syntax from semantics, permitting forward compatibility for code, like low-level parsers, only processing the syntax.

The WHATWG made the argument that out in the real world syntactically correct documents are almost the exception, not the norm. Because that's true the vision of being able to ubiquitously slice-and-dice documents with a shared syntax but distinct internal semantics was not attainable as a general matter. Any software consuming HTML out in the open universe would always need to be aware of contemporary HTML semantics even for low-level parsing. The insistence on separating syntax from semantics for HTML had a high cost but very little realized benefit.

However, the benefits are attainable within a closed universe, such as a CMS. And this is why HTML5 doesn't require, but nonetheless permits, XML- and XHTML-compliant syntax. It's not even treated as an error or exception, not in the way that other malformed but recoverable constructs are. A self-closing tag is syntactically valid, so there's absolutely no reason not to use it other than convenience. Excluding it out of convenience is perfectly acceptable, but in some situations--e.g. when using the more general and diverse ecosystems of XML and XSLT processors--it can be extremely inconvenient to exclude the SOLIDUS.

Re: HTML is the Web

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is an unpopular opinion, since I am of the same. I agree with you that the URL is the most important feature of the web. Without it, you could just as well deploy native apps because it wouldn't really make that much of a difference. Without javascript and a heavy client side, I wouldn't have a job today since the application I build is simply not possible to create with just html+css. Sure there a…

Isn't it pretty hacky to use a Web browser for that instead of a dedicated virtual machine ?

For what exactly?

Re: HTML is the Web

#278

HTTP is the Web. HTML is just the superficial face of the web.

HTTP has been misused recently though, applications that really have nothing to do with HyperText Documents using it as a communication protocol when a lower level protocol would have been more appropriate...

Re: HTML is the Web

#279

I always chime into these articles with the exact same sentiment: this is a business problem, not a developer problem. Developers love simplicity and semantics. But when a UI gets to a certain level of complexity (I say 10 interactions per page) then semantics get hard to maintain or translate. I'm building a recommendation engine for a client right now. Lots of wooshes, whirring and moving parts, a good amount of it…

Since the article's main point is that you should use semantics as much as possible, it's probably better that you used the "wrong" tag when choosing between or , than using the wrong tag and choosing s for lack of not even having asked the question "what should this be?".

While rewriting what's already out there may be a business decision, choosing between what HTML tag to use when changing/writing new ones, is completely business agnostic.

Re: HTML is the Web

#280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> any of the browsers I have access to on linux I use linux as well and I have yet to find a webpage that doesn't work with Firefox and Brave. Maybe you shouldn't block javascript and instead block trackers and ads. There are a lot of tools to do that like uBlock Origin, pi-hole, privacy badger etc. Javascript is used by pretty much all websites today to do mostly other stuff than tracking. Why are you blocking it if…

I've had a few sites that wouldn't work for me without booting up my windows laptop and running edge. One of them is the place I make car payments. I use uBlock Origin at home. I use NoScript at work. I like it because it blocks ads and because it does break much of the web. I don't want auto-playing videos, I don't want an enhanced experience, I just want to find the information I'm looking for. If the website I go…

Ok cool to hear your story, thanks for sharing it.

If you want, I can tell you some of the apps I use. I use Slack, Telegram, Visual Studio Code, Discord, Tidal (as a PWA) and a bunch of other web apps.

Some apps I really do require to be fancy, like fastmail. Using it with normal forms and no ajax would suck imo.

I am myself also building an app where we heavily rely on a map and rendering stuff upon it. It is very interactive, and it would not be possible (at least to the extent that we want to deliver it) to make it without javascript.

I also think most of the "desktop" apps I heavily use wouldn't really exist for linux if electron didn't exist which is kind of sad.

But now they do and they work wonders, so good I use them every day. You can barely tell that Discord or Visual Studio Code is web apps nowadays since they work so damn good, better than most hacky open source alternatives that exist for linux.

I think it's cool that you and some other people can have a functional user experience without javascript but for me it's simply not possible if I want to enjoy all the benefits that running with javascript enables me.

I actually rather use web apps, progressive web apps etc than install a native app that can ruin my entire computer. They are equally fast nowadays, web apps often get updates a lot faster and it isn't a risk to update the app. Just refresh the app and everything is safe and sound, especially with PWAs.

Just check this screenshot, it even looks native (and hardware keys work fine):

https://i.imgur.com/OeOaMPt.png

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