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“Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

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Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#31

Post by moorhosj »

izzydata wrote: post #27
moorhosj wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could simply add the number of distinct users replying. Seems like a pretty simple fix.

I'm still not very convinced that replying without liking is an indicator of negativity. Maybe in most cases, but definitely not all cases. I don't use the like feature on the website at all and often comment on artwork saying how nice it is or whatever.

They have all the data to be able to make a relatively simple change like this. They don't want to, likely because it "drives engagement".

Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#32

Post by bradstewart »

izzydata wrote: post #27
moorhosj wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could simply add the number of distinct users replying. Seems like a pretty simple fix.

I'm still not very convinced that replying without liking is an indicator of negativity. Maybe in most cases, but definitely not all cases. I don't use the like feature on the website at all and often comment on artwork saying how nice it is or whatever.

I almost exclusively use the like feature.

Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#33

Post by vqdwj »

333c wrote: post #19
vqdwj wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can trivially hide an element permanently using any ad blocker of your choice.

I didn't suggest that I couldn't; however I figured that the work had already been done in the extension.

Right-clicking the heart button and clicking "block element" is much easier and faster than downloading an extension, reviewing its code, then overriding whatever safeguards Chrome has to make it hard to install 3rd party extensions. Just my two cents.

Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#34

Post by 333c »

vqdwj wrote: post #33
333c wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't suggest that I couldn't; however I figured that the work had already been done in the extension.

Right-clicking the heart button and clicking "block element" is much easier and faster than downloading an extension, reviewing its code, then overriding whatever safeguards Chrome has to make it hard to install 3rd party extensions. Just my two cents.

I think you misunderstood me. I want to block everything other than tweets and retweets from my timeline. No "so-and-so liked" or "so-and-so follows."

Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#35

Post by otakucode »

freehunter wrote: post #30
izzydata wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound like a solid indicator of an issue. Two friends could be having a back and forth discussion with no harassment or conflict. You'd end up with 25+ replies and 1 like.

What's the point of locating in Silicon Valley and hiring the smartest programmers in the world if you can't figure out an algorithm to make hateful posts not show up as often in someone's feed? I doubt it's because they can't. The more likely answer is they don't want to.

I would imagine the issue is certainly because they can't. What is hateful to you is charming and encouraging to someone else. Social norms and cultural differences are gigantic. Look at the recent controversy with the conservative guy on YouTube who referred to a reported from Vox as their 'queer Latino reporter' and it was seen as hate speech... despite the Vox reporter openly and frequently labelling themselves as Voxs queer Latino reporter. How is a computer supposed to interpret that? How is it supposed to know that when person A says something and when person B says the exact same words, referring to the exact same subject, that the greater context of the speakers background political affiliations and those of their audience actually determine the 'meaning' behind the statement, not the statement itself?

This is not an easy problem, and it does no one any good to pretend that it is. Tackling the issue also requires those considering it to consider other social situations. Is someone supporting equal treatment of women in Saudia Arabia practicing hate speech against the conservative ruling party? If we'd had systems that let us actively regulate speech in the way we can now, would it have been appropriate to block Martin Luther King Jr. because his message was growing civil disobedience and causing families to bicker over race politics? Why are we so damn certain that any argument today will necessarily be decided by a regression rather than a wider acceptance of more progress? Change in human societies is always ugly, always comes at the cost of pain and strife, and on the balance has usually moved us in a forward direction. I can't say the same for censorship. Censorship makes impossible any forward movement, and only serves to leave regressive mindsets to fester and make-believe that they have more support than they actually do.

Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#36

Post by pmarreck »

freehunter wrote: post #30
izzydata wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't sound like a solid indicator of an issue. Two friends could be having a back and forth discussion with no harassment or conflict. You'd end up with 25+ replies and 1 like.

What's the point of locating in Silicon Valley and hiring the smartest programmers in the world if you can't figure out an algorithm to make hateful posts not show up as often in someone's feed? I doubt it's because they can't. The more likely answer is they don't want to.

It's actually a hard problem, similar to porn detection without using humans (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it). Blocking purely based on keywords or Bayesian filtering usually paints too broad a stroke and ends up limiting well-intended free speech (I once had a comment blocked for arguing AGAINST racism!). It's similar to the "blocking all mention of sex also blocks sex education" problem. It seems to take a fully-fleshed-out intelligence to grasp the true meaning behind even something as innocuous-looking as a written sentence.

Your assumption that people more intelligent than you "should have figured this out by now" belies the very problem- no one has yet come up with a good automated solution for this. If YOU do, you'll be a millionaire.

Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#37

Post by freehunter »

otakucode wrote: post #35
freehunter wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of locating in Silicon Valley and hiring the smartest programmers in the world if you can't figure out an algorithm to make hateful posts not show up as often in someone's feed? I doubt it's because they can't. The more likely answer is they don't want to.

I would imagine the issue is certainly because they can't. What is hateful to you is charming and encouraging to someone else. Social norms and cultural differences are gigantic. Look at the recent controversy with the conservative guy on YouTube who referred to a reported from Vox as their 'queer Latino reporter' and it was seen as hate speech... despite the Vox reporter openly and frequently labelling themselves as…

We're not talking about banning these posts, or hiding them, or censoring them. Just not showing them as widely as they do other posts. It doesn't even need to go as deep as "this is hateful", but rather "this has the potential to be hateful" or giving the author the ability to control how widely the message is being shared.

I see these people here trying to debate solutions like good engineers, but unless they work at Twitter, it's a waste. We can guess all day and come up with a million solutions but when it comes down to it, Twitter absolutely has the ability to control posts that spiral out of control. What they don't have is the desire to do so.

Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#38

Post by freehunter »

pmarreck wrote: post #36
freehunter wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of locating in Silicon Valley and hiring the smartest programmers in the world if you can't figure out an algorithm to make hateful posts not show up as often in someone's feed? I doubt it's because they can't. The more likely answer is they don't want to.

It's actually a hard problem, similar to porn detection without using humans (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it ). Blocking purely based on keywords or Bayesian filtering usually paints too broad a stroke and ends up limiting well-intended free speech (I once had a comment blocked for arguing AGAINST racism!). It's similar to the "blocking all mention of sex also blocks sex education" problem…

Again, I disagree. Twitter came up with a way to make some posts more widely shown, and you're trying to tell me they don't have a way to make some posts less widely shown? As someone else said, if there are a lot of comments and few likes, don't put it in the trending feed. That's one solution for free, and I don't even work for Twitter. If it's two people having a conversation back and forth, the broader Twitter audience doesn't need to see it. It's not censored, it's not hidden, it's just not broadcast either.

People have become millionaires, billionaires even, for the exact opposite of what you say. You become rich by making sure controversial content is spread as far and wide as possible, because hatred and fear sell as entertainment. People get addicted to it. You don't become rich by filtering out hateful content, you become rich by enabling it and spreading it because that's what people want (as long as they're not the target).

Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#39

Post by noobermin »

The magical step is the final step in the argument. The algorithm does seemt to increase engagement altogether, but people's negativity bias will give more weight in ones' mind to the harrassing comments. The algo does incentivize replies it seems, which could potentially be negative, given people don't reply to positive things beyond to like or RT them, so that's an argument in their favor.

Of course, most people don't notice this. I've never had a post with more than 100 replies for example, so I would have never been aware of this.

Re: “Twitter has an algorithm that creates harassment all by itself”

#40

Post by crb »

There are two tiers of Twitter: the early-adopter tech users, who use third-party API clients like Twitterific and Tweetbot, and everyone else.

The first bucket has a vastly different Twitter experience. As an API client user I have no ads, no polls, no recommendations or friends likes, no "someone you follow replied" experience. Just a timeline of who I choose to follow, the blissful way it always was. No wonder they wanted to shut the API down.

(Apropos of nothing, the first bucket contains all the tech journalists.)

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