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HTML is the Web

petelambert.com

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Re: HTML is the Web

#201

Post by wwweston »

flohofwoe wrote: post #9

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

Imagine that in the 90s, a "URLs only" web took off -- not too hard to envision, really, considering how many sites there were that were giant slabs of sliced images with hotspots for links between, or how Sun was pushing the vision of URLs essentially indexing Java client apps.

If that had ended up as the dominant paradigm... Google (or a search engine like it) wouldn't exist.

A URLs-only web, one that sees the browser as nothing more than The VM That Lived™, is actually the more limited vision.

Re: HTML is the Web

#202

Post by felxh »

saagarjha wrote: post #154
hombre_fatal wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's astounding the number of interview candidates who are super-fluent in JS but can't tell you to save their lives why it's a bad idea to put a click handler on a div. Go on?

Because you've literally just described what a is.

That would mean that anything that responds to click events is a button. From your experience of using UIs, you can probably think of many more UI elements that respond to clicks and are not buttons

Re: HTML is the Web

#203

Post by the8472 »

flohofwoe wrote: post #9

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

> It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are not able or willing to provide a safe "native" sandbox completely uncoupled from curated app stores.

Windows 10 comes with a VM-based application sandbox. But it's meant for powerusers and has to be explicitly enabled

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-use-windows-sandbox-windo...

Re: HTML is the Web

#204

Post by rangerpolitic »

The new approaches to HTML/CSS run directly counter to the specs sometimes.

Take Bulma for example. They provide styles for titles and subtitles, but their examples use h1 elements.

See: https://bulma.io/documentation/elements/title/

Why is that a problem?

This is explicitly addressed in the HTML 5.2 specification.

> h1–h6 elements must not be used to markup subheadings, subtitles, alternative titles and taglines unless intended to be the heading for a new section or subsection.

See: https://www.w3.org/TR/html52/sections.html#headings-and-sect...

As the author suggests, they don't understand the tools they're using.

Re: HTML is the Web

#205

Post by rangerpolitic »

ktpsns wrote: post #89

I recently used Semantic-UI ( http://semantic-ui.com/ ) in a project. Semantic-UI is a web framework where "semantic" means there are human readable class names like Compared to Bootstrap, Semantic-UI ships with high level "components" ("views", "modules", "collections"). And here comes the ugly: They all abuse HTML as if it was 2008. Div soup everywhere. Even lists have to be formatted as Divs, something I havent do…

https://tailwindcss.com/docs/utility-first/

You could always use a little classname vomit to go with your div soup.

The problem is that "modern" development has misplaced importance. It's become an incredibly selfish practice. There is more concern placed for the developers than the users.

Re: HTML is the Web

#206

Post by the8472 »

nayuki wrote: post #146
tobyhinloopen wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All my webpages had the valid xhtml badge! https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Valid_XHTML_1.0.svg I still have a hard time un-learning ` `

I currently serve real XHTML5 code on my website with the correct media type of application/xhtml+xml. https://www.nayuki.io/ This works properly in all modern browsers (Chrome, Firefox, Safari, Edge; PC, Mac, Android, iOS) and even Internet Explorer 11. Though in the past, I had to make concessions for older versions of IE, serving the same code as text/html instead. I arranged things this way because I hand-write m…

At least in firefox this isn't handled as XML DOM document (they might still use the XML parser). XHTML pages used to be. On your page:

  document instanceof XMLDocument // false
On https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/SVG-Grun...

  document instanceof XMLDocument // true

Re: HTML is the Web

#207

Post by jdofaz »

old-gregg wrote: post #196
flohofwoe wrote: post #9

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

> the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code Unfortunately it's not true. Zero day exploits happen all the time, even the recent Intel CPU vulnerabilities were exploitable via JavaScript. Morevever, some harmful effects of arbitrary code execution cannot be mitigated (like the drained battery or user tracking), that's why I have recently adopted a view that code execution on web p…

I'm aware of at least one project to do that with Ember

https://ember-fastboot.com/#how-does-it-work-

Re: HTML is the Web

#208

Post by rangerpolitic »

onion2k wrote: post #5

A Web page is a document. No it's not. It never was. Even a long time ago when websites were static things rendered by the browser once and then left alone there was always a tree of nodes underlying everything. The only thing that's changed in the past three decades is that now when we make websites and web apps we often ship a little JS application that lets the user modify the underlying tree. That's what the web…

> HyperText Markup Language (HTML) is a simple markup system used to create hypertext documents that are portable from one platform to another.

Source: The HTML 3 Specification.

https://www.w3.org/MarkUp/html3/intro.html

Re: HTML is the Web

#209

Post by godshatter »

ecmascript wrote: post #183
godshatter wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What we need, in my opinion, is a new protocol. Leave http(s) for documents and make a new protocol designed from the ground up for interactive applications. That solves the problem of trying to shove an application into a document viewing sub-system and should allow for more creativity and efficiency, depending on what this new protocol turns out to be. What's happening now is like trying to force ftp to show docume…

Maybe that would make it better, maybe not. It's hard to get everyone on the same page working together on a platform that noone ownes. If it was easy, there would have been several protocols in use already. I am content with what we got and are happy about it. I think it works pretty great after all.

I'm not so happy with it, since I'm tired of trying to figure out which domains to allow javascript from when practically every page has a list of a dozen or more. I'm tired of trying to run pages that don't work with any of the browsers I have access to on linux, despite html being a standard. The whole paradigm seems broken to me. It just feels like a monumental kludge.

Re: HTML is the Web

#210

Post by komali2 »

dthedev wrote: post #171
komali2 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about web applications? I am the office champion of accessible web, but recently we made a web based game, in canvas. Without js, there's no game engine, so we had a noscript tag. That synths article uses built in JavaScript synths (using audio apis). I agree the text should display without JavaScript but the purpose of the article (get hands on with synths) is eliminated without JS. Basically, the web not only…

If you like synths on the web, check this out. https://learningsynths.ableton.com/

Cheers, but that is the exact article we're discussing lol
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