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HTML is the Web

petelambert.com

161–170 of 341 posts

Re: HTML is the Web

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web pages should be designed to load without js.

Web pages should be designed to be standards-compliant. While you are free to turn JS off (and that's part of what makes the web great), you shouldn't be surprised if things break. Your browser is no longer standards-compliant.

Browsers are not required to support JavaScript; in fact, HTML has a specific tag to support this case.

Re: HTML is the Web

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Web pages should be designed to be standards-compliant. While you are free to turn JS off (and that's part of what makes the web great), you shouldn't be surprised if things break. Your browser is no longer standards-compliant.

Browsers are not required to support JavaScript; in fact, HTML has a specific tag to support this case.

Yes, but the standard recommends against actually using it.

>The noscript element is a blunt instrument. Sometimes, scripts might be enabled, but for some reason the page's script might fail. For this reason, it's generally better to avoid using noscript, and to instead design the script to change the page from being a scriptless page to a scripted page on the fly, as in the next example

https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/scripting.html#the-no...

Re: HTML is the Web

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of this isn't a given anymore with software vendors going subscription-only like Adobe's Creative Cloud. On the other hand, PWAs (Progressive Web Apps) also work in offline mode without a "traditional" installation step.

Not even Steam works like that. Stay offline for 30 days (iirc) and try to play the games you paid for.

Well, Steam is a DRMed game lending platform; content is only stored off-line because there's no practical way for them to do otherwise. If they could get away with streaming games from their servers, they'd happily do it.

Re: HTML is the Web

#164
post #77

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

I'm inclined to disagree, but I guess the real problem is that webpages on the internet are being forced to serve both purposes. Paradigm 1 - interconnected, hyperlinked web of text-and-content-based documents: open, accessible, amenable to indexing and tooling and so forth. Paradigm 2 - delivery vehicle for cross-platform, full-featured, somewhat-security-sandboxed, applications. I agree with the article that it's s…

Paradigm 1's security/privacy (WebRTC and webttorrent ip leaking, canvas finger printing) are being compromised in sake of striving for fancy stuff in Paradigm 2.

Browser vendors (Firefox, Chrome, Brave) please get your act together to prevent https://nothingprivate.ml

Re: HTML is the Web

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ll bite: Why is it bad to put a click handler on a div? Because we’re losing the semantic content of the markup?

For one, it won't play nice with accessibility helpers... screen readers, keyboard interaction, etc.

While I agree semantically use of can be clearer, clickable divs can still play largely fine with most accessibility technologies if ARIA attributes are used.

Does it semantically make the most sense? Not necessarily, but it isn't a blocker to most accessibility tools and use and support for ARIA attributes is pretty widespread nowadays, including all of the major browsers and screen readers.

> https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/accessibility...

> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/A...

Re: HTML is the Web

#166
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever written anything in Qt?

I've recently been using it and I am very disappointed. Some tasks that should be totally trivial are incredibly hard to get right and require platform specific solutions. Nothing unsolvable, but I was expecting a much more straightforward experience from a product that has been promoted as the cross platform toolkit since the 90s.

I co-developed a Qt C++ app of ~40,000 lines. I think the amount of platform-specific code was at most a couple of pages (handling macOS' behavior to keep an app alive when all its windows are closed).

It is not perfect, but it feels a lot more native on every platform than virtually any web or electron app I have seen (including predictable keyboard shortcuts).

Re: HTML is the Web

#167
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the use of "installing" an application these days? Once I "install" an application, for example libreoffice: - It works even if I do not have a working Internet connection (or back in the day, even if I had removed the original media from the drive); - It works even if the original is gone. That is, by "installing" an application, I gain a permanent, offline, working copy of it.

Most of this isn't a given anymore with software vendors going subscription-only like Adobe's Creative Cloud. On the other hand, PWAs (Progressive Web Apps) also work in offline mode without a "traditional" installation step.

> Most of this isn't a given anymore with software vendors going subscription-only like Adobe's Creative Cloud.

Please stop saying this as if it is in any way acceptable. Some parts of the computing world work like this, but this is not, nor should it ever be, the new normal.

You can still definitely use your computer without resorting to such licensed crapware.

Re: HTML is the Web

#168

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

Well, beside formatting, html is

Re: HTML is the Web

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is an unpopular opinion, since I am of the same. I agree with you that the URL is the most important feature of the web. Without it, you could just as well deploy native apps because it wouldn't really make that much of a difference. Without javascript and a heavy client side, I wouldn't have a job today since the application I build is simply not possible to create with just html+css. Sure there a…

What we need, in my opinion, is a new protocol. Leave http(s) for documents and make a new protocol designed from the ground up for interactive applications. That solves the problem of trying to shove an application into a document viewing sub-system and should allow for more creativity and efficiency, depending on what this new protocol turns out to be. What's happening now is like trying to force ftp to show docume…

The possibility for HTML documents to support inline scripting was considered even prior to HTML 4[0]. The script tag itself is decades old now, it's supposed to be there and it's as legitimate an element as any other.

The web was never intended to only ever be static, nor is scripting in the browser somehow a corruption or aberration of the web's original purpose. If anything, the web should have been a lot more programmable[1] than it turned out to be.

[0]https://www.w3.org/TR/2018/SPSD-html32-20180315/#script

[1]https://eager.io/blog/a-brief-history-of-weird-scripting-lan...

Re: HTML is the Web

#170

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

> My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL,

As others have pointed out, that's hardly a contrary opinion.

To quote Roy Fielding's Dissertation (p 109).

"Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI) are both the simplest element of the Web architecture and the most important."

https://www.ics.uci.edu/~fielding/pubs/dissertation/fielding...

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