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HTML is the Web

petelambert.com

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Re: HTML is the Web

#111

Post by kowdermeister »

rimliu wrote: post #79
kowdermeister wrote: post #30

What is the point the author is making? That the knowledge of HTML is going away? That's obviously false. > And it is becoming increasingly clear to me that there’s a whole swathe of Frontend Engineers who don’t know or understand the frontend-est of frontend technologies. I would need some data on this, since it sounds like this claim is backed by anecdotes. None of my co-workers struggle with this and there's lot o…

I would not consider knowing "a bit of CSS" as knowing and understanding frontend-est of frontend technologies. Alas, there are more than enough cluches available in the form of variouos frameworks so throwing enough stuff at the wall fill finally make some of it stick hence replacing the need of knowledge and understanding.

We are talking about HTML. It's really-really easy and I don't think there is a problem at all that the author claims.

Re: HTML is the Web

#112

Post by cjcenizal »

ktpsns wrote: post #89

I recently used Semantic-UI ( http://semantic-ui.com/ ) in a project. Semantic-UI is a web framework where "semantic" means there are human readable class names like Compared to Bootstrap, Semantic-UI ships with high level "components" ("views", "modules", "collections"). And here comes the ugly: They all abuse HTML as if it was 2008. Div soup everywhere. Even lists have to be formatted as Divs, something I havent do…

“Semantic” eh? I don’t think that word means what the authors of the framework think it means. :)

Re: HTML is the Web

#113

Post by thinkloop »

fipar wrote: post #97
pjc50 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite sure how this relates to the original article, but: > the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". > for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are not able or willing to provide a safe "native" sandbox completely uncoupled from curated app stores. The key word here is absolutely "unwilling". All the…

> In a world of fully general app sandboxes, you can switch out your hardware and OS at any time without disrupting your life or business. Therefore those are commoditized, and their price drops to the marginal cost of production - which for software is zero. I think software's marginal cost of production is zero only if no updates/fixes are ever needed. I know it sounds like nitpicking but just think of all the vuln…

The zero mainly comes from the ability to scale for free. Sure it costs a few million bucks to maintain Linux (or whatever), but when divided by billions of copies the per unit cost becomes effectively zero.

Re: HTML is the Web

#114

Post by jsgo »

ktpsns wrote: post #89

I recently used Semantic-UI ( http://semantic-ui.com/ ) in a project. Semantic-UI is a web framework where "semantic" means there are human readable class names like Compared to Bootstrap, Semantic-UI ships with high level "components" ("views", "modules", "collections"). And here comes the ugly: They all abuse HTML as if it was 2008. Div soup everywhere. Even lists have to be formatted as Divs, something I havent do…

This only seems beneficial if you're attempting to break compatibility with the browsers' built in understanding of ul and li tags (perhaps some concern that browsers will handle those tags differently in the future). Otherwise, they're just reinventing the wheel for the sake of doing so which may make for a fun exercise, probably shouldn't be used in a real project.

Re: HTML is the Web

#115

Post by pjc50 »

fipar wrote: post #97
pjc50 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not quite sure how this relates to the original article, but: > the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". > for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are not able or willing to provide a safe "native" sandbox completely uncoupled from curated app stores. The key word here is absolutely "unwilling". All the…

> In a world of fully general app sandboxes, you can switch out your hardware and OS at any time without disrupting your life or business. Therefore those are commoditized, and their price drops to the marginal cost of production - which for software is zero. I think software's marginal cost of production is zero only if no updates/fixes are ever needed. I know it sounds like nitpicking but just think of all the vuln…

That's not a marginal cost of production, though. It costs almost the same to fix a bug if you have one user or a billion users.

It certainly is a real cost that has encouraged software vendors to move from "box" sales (which became tricky when we gave up on boxes) to annual licenses and/or SaaS. But it's not a marginal cost.

Re: HTML is the Web

#116

Post by woodrowbarlow »

ktpsns wrote: post #89

I recently used Semantic-UI ( http://semantic-ui.com/ ) in a project. Semantic-UI is a web framework where "semantic" means there are human readable class names like Compared to Bootstrap, Semantic-UI ships with high level "components" ("views", "modules", "collections"). And here comes the ugly: They all abuse HTML as if it was 2008. Div soup everywhere. Even lists have to be formatted as Divs, something I havent do…

this seems like it's "semantic" in a way that is completely useless for every use-case of semantic markup.

Re: HTML is the Web

#118

Post by jypepin »

this resonates. I interviewed a front end enginner last week who had a few years of experience, so not completely junior. He had been working with React most of the time.

we did a simple live coding challenge that didnt require React. Only some javascript to output some html in the document. They were confused because they couldn't do `return hello world` and couldn't figure out how to instead simply do `return "hello world"` (jsx vs a string of pure html).

It was pretty painful to see but also made me realise how Vue and React can make life easier but seems to get people to know even less how underlying things are working.

I guess it's the fate of all technologies.

Re: HTML is the Web

#119

Post by EGreg »

rthomas6 wrote: post #110
bo1024 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm inclined to disagree, but I guess the real problem is that webpages on the internet are being forced to serve both purposes. Paradigm 1 - interconnected, hyperlinked web of text-and-content-based documents: open, accessible, amenable to indexing and tooling and so forth. Paradigm 2 - delivery vehicle for cross-platform, full-featured, somewhat-security-sandboxed, applications. I agree with the article that it's s…

Don't we kind of have Paradigm 2 on our smartphones and tablets? It's not perfect but it's something.

We should replace DNS with DHT, then we can have content addressable (or otherwise verified) apps sideloaded or loaded in chunks from anywhere like in BitTorrent or Dat.

To me, the Browser is the most widely distributed sandbox runtime ever! It’s just missing a few crucial things we plan to add soon :-)

Re: HTML is the Web

#120

Post by amelius »

rocky1138 wrote: post #103
amelius wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, a browser should be just a sandbox, nothing more. All the HTML+CSS+JS stuff only makes browsers difficult to secure, and also causes bloat and performance issues when they are not needed. Furthermore, all these hairy web specifications cause compatibility issues, and are a barrier to entry for new browser makers. If people want HTML or CSS or JS, then they should implement these inside the sandbox. In practic…

Ok, but that isn't "the web." You are completely free to write and launch a new app that does this today . Just don't try and shoehorn it into my web browser.

> Ok, but that isn't "the web."

It's "the sandboxed, browser agnostic web".

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