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HTML is the Web

petelambert.com

81–90 of 341 posts

Re: HTML is the Web

#81
Are there really people out there who know and understand Vue or React, but not HTML?

I always found Vue and React to be not good enough abstraction layers - you still need to tweak and fiddle with the layer below from time to time to make anything work properly.

Re: HTML is the Web

#82

As an experiment, I started https://wordsandbuttons.online/ in plain hand-crafted HTML+CSS+JS (JS for the interactive bits only). Every page is self-sufficient, there are no dependencies, no dynamic data exchange, no HTML generators, - nothing. And it works so well, I don't really want any frameworks now. It's perfectly malleable - I can make every page do exactly what I want it to. It's lean and fast - every page ev…

It is truly astonishing how much people believe that they need frameworks.

Your site looks nice, but one comment I'll make about your coding style is that you (or anyone getting inspired from your code) should probably switch away from innerHTML as the default choice for DOM modification. In a lot of otherwise useful contexts it is an HTML injection hole. (For the record it doesn't seem to be a security issue for the kind of content you have made, but better kill the habit before it becomes a problem.)

For a while I used document.createElement and friends to generate injection-free DOM, but that style takes a lot more typing than innerHTML usually does. Eventually I made a tiny library for easing the job, and I haven't looked back since. I don't think anyone else uses it, but so far it is definitely worth it for the one happy user. https://github.com/NoHatCoder/DOM_Maker

Re: HTML is the Web

#83
> It’s about usability and accessibility. If you don’t think the semantic structure of your Web page or app is important then you’re essentially saying “Well, it works for me in my browser, ship it”.

I'm interested, how close to reality is this view of front end devs?

In my day job, it's difficult to get through a project without encountering WCAG 2.x or some other accessibility criteria. Which usually forces you to be more semantic in order to avoid having to be more explicit using aria to tell screen readers etc what your special version of HTML means. Is this so uncommon? This comes up as a contractual obligation all the time in educational products, is this not the case in most other sectors?

Re: HTML is the Web

#84
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Meanwhile, HTML is parsed by much more than a browser. Any examples?

Bots and email clients. Microsoft word. Libre Office.

and anyone still using an RSS reader. Anyone sharing something on Facebook or other social media, me when I'm trying to write an app to do something interesting for which there is no existing API.

Re: HTML is the Web

#85

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are not able or willing to provide a safe "native" sandbox completely uncoupled from curated app stores.

Apple is going down this route with code signing and granular permissions with Macintosh applications that don’t have to be part of the Mac App Store and there is still whining from geeks that this is leading to a walled garden, even though there are approved ways to work around it.

It's the same with Electron apps by the way, those wouldn't exist if operating systems would come with cross-platform UI frameworks that are actually better than the unholy mix of HTML+CSS+JS. But Microsoft, Apple etc... had decades to get their act together without delivering.

One of the problems with Electron is that it’s the same interface everywhere. I don’t want the same interface on a Mac that I have on Windows.

Re: HTML is the Web

#86

Unpopular opinion... but I think this is a too limited view of the web. My contrary opinion is that the actually important feature of the web is the URL, and the important feature of the browser is that it provides a sandboxed platform for running untrusted code without a builtin "walled garden moral police". It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are…

It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are not able or willing to provide a safe "native" sandbox completely uncoupled from curated app stores. Apple is going down this route with code signing and granular permissions with Macintosh applications that don’t have to be part of the Mac App Store and there is still whining from geeks that this is leading t…

I'm sorry but you have to be special kind of delusional to think apple is doing something to move away from walled garden lol.

They haven't done it because it doesn't bring any benefits to the greedy corps, and apple is the worst offender with their dumbed down, shackled os

Re: HTML is the Web

#87

Are there really people out there who know and understand Vue or React, but not HTML? I always found Vue and React to be not good enough abstraction layers - you still need to tweak and fiddle with the layer below from time to time to make anything work properly.

I read the article as "HTML is more than just and + CSS", rather than "HTML is the Web" (whatever that means).

Re: HTML is the Web

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be nice if operating systems would be exactly that, but for some reason "commercial" OS vendors are not able or willing to provide a safe "native" sandbox completely uncoupled from curated app stores. Apple is going down this route with code signing and granular permissions with Macintosh applications that don’t have to be part of the Mac App Store and there is still whining from geeks that this is leading t…

I'm sorry but you have to be special kind of delusional to think apple is doing something to move away from walled garden lol. They haven't done it because it doesn't bring any benefits to the greedy corps, and apple is the worst offender with their dumbed down, shackled os

Did you read the post or are you just responding to your own prejudices? The parent post said that OS vendors should have sandboxes without an App Store. Isn’t Apple doing exactly that with the Macintosh? The Mac App Store is optional and despite all of the conspiracies, it was introduced over 8 years ago and you can release an application on the Mac just as easily today as you could then.

So how is MacOS - a real certified Unix OS “dumbed down”?

Re: HTML is the Web

#89
I recently used Semantic-UI (http://semantic-ui.com/) in a project. Semantic-UI is a web framework where "semantic" means there are human readable class names like

   
Compared to Bootstrap, Semantic-UI ships with high level "components" ("views", "modules", "collections"). And here comes the ugly: They all abuse HTML as if it was 2008. Div soup everywhere. Even lists have to be formatted as Divs, something I havent done since ages, something like:

   
     ...
     ...
   
It really felt as if the knowledge about semantic html tags got lost somewhere. Or the authors of this popular CSS framework have another understanding of "semantic". It doesen't meet my quality of structured HTML, thought.

Re: HTML is the Web

#90
post #5

A Web page is a document. No it's not. It never was. Even a long time ago when websites were static things rendered by the browser once and then left alone there was always a tree of nodes underlying everything. The only thing that's changed in the past three decades is that now when we make websites and web apps we often ship a little JS application that lets the user modify the underlying tree. That's what the web…

>But static HTML pages isn't the web, and the single page application genie isn't going back in the bottle.

Single page applications are the corporate web. The profit web. The web that exists to squeeze information and money out of you without ever sharing or exposing any of itself. SPA are a cancer on the web that aren't going back in the bottle. Corps are gonna corp and institutions will follow.

But you, the single web dev, don't have to take this bullshit design philosophy home with you. Just because you have to shovel manure at work doesn't mean it's beautiful or that you need to bring the shovel home for personal projects. Get paid for shoveling shit. At home make real web pages.

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