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Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

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Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#51

Post by RickJWagner »

boapnuaput wrote: post #49
s9w wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AOC said "never again" in her concentration camp remarks, CLEARLY making the connection to WW2 concentration camps.

Oregonian here. Yes, she was talking about WW2 concentration camps. It's disgusting that you've forgotten that, during WW2, we ran concentration camps too, for Japanese-Americans and others who we failed to trust in spite of their citizenship. Read the parent comment again. George Takei was in one of these camps!

No, those were not concentration camps. They were internment camps.

Big difference. Concentration camps were murder centers. Internment camps were not.

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#52

Post by eesmith »

RickJWagner wrote: post #51
boapnuaput wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oregonian here. Yes, she was talking about WW2 concentration camps. It's disgusting that you've forgotten that, during WW2, we ran concentration camps too, for Japanese-Americans and others who we failed to trust in spite of their citizenship. Read the parent comment again. George Takei was in one of these camps!

No, those were not concentration camps. They were internment camps. Big difference. Concentration camps were murder centers. Internment camps were not.

FDR, Eisenhower, and many other high-ranking government officials at the time referred to the Japanese 'internment camps' also as 'concentration camps'.

See http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/poets/g_l/haiku/camps.h... as an example of how in the 1990s there was already the complaint that it "seems strange that we are still debating the use of terms describing this event" when it was well-established that the Japanese were indeed in concentration camps in all but official name.

It also gives quotes, like Truman in 1961 saying "They were concentration camps. They called it relocation but they put them in concentration camps, and I was against it. We were in a period of emergency, but it was still the wrong thing to do."

The term "concentration camp" was also used in the Spanish-American and Boer Wars, for something other than "murder centers".

All evidence I've seen says that calling these facilities something other than "concentration camp" is a euphemism to hide the atrocities that we are committing YET AGAIN.

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#53

Post by 0815test »

boapnuaput wrote: post #50
0815test wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The radical progressive's worldview is that our society is itself a white supremacist society - this is taken as axiomatic and a matter of definition , not as something that could be meaningfully argued about, or even be said to depend on anything concrete about the real world! Thus, by definition, any support for existing social structures (including support for President Trump!) can be rightly defined as "sup…

Hi! I'm further left than most progressives. Our society is not homogenous enough to make a statement like "white supremacist society" substantial. However, there are three closely-related truths which are pretty obvious about our society: * Our society is, itself, a fascist, classist, militaristic society. * Pockets of people and parochial cultures in some specific regions are white supremacists. This isn't definiti…

It's not that I don't perceive many things that might be described with some truth-of-the-matter as "fascist, classist, militaristic". What I might object to is the use of such terms as "fascist", "classist", "militaristic" as thought-terminating cliches deprived of any real content, which is astoundingly common. And the meme of "the white-supremacist society" is not significantly different in any real sense - though it does seem more likely to prompt attitudes such as Ravelry's, as reported in the OP.

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#55

Post by eesmith »

0815test wrote: post #53
boapnuaput wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! I'm further left than most progressives. Our society is not homogenous enough to make a statement like "white supremacist society" substantial. However, there are three closely-related truths which are pretty obvious about our society: * Our society is, itself, a fascist, classist, militaristic society. * Pockets of people and parochial cultures in some specific regions are white supremacists. This isn't definiti…

It's not that I don't perceive many things that might be described with some truth-of-the-matter as "fascist, classist, militaristic". What I might object to is the use of such terms as "fascist", "classist", "militaristic" as thought-terminating cliches deprived of any real content, which is astoundingly common. And the meme of "the white-supremacist society" is not significantly different in any real sense - though…

Rather than switch to a meta-conversation about "memes", could you address the more concrete questions I asked earlier? That is, I wanted to know if you think that "white supremacy and "supporting white supremacy" were meaningful terms at all.

Before doing that, I'll note that you were the first to use the term 'society' in this thread. My previous statements were along the lines of 'support for open white supremacy'. I think "society" is a distraction because there's always the "not all" objection - not all white people in Virgiania in 1850s were in favor of slavery, even though it was a slave society.

So when I mean "society", I mean "the main cultural views as reinforced by the government and others with political, economic, and physical power".

Going back to my earlier questions, which I'll augment:

1) can the 1970s South Africa be described as a white supremacist society? I think it can. For obvious reasons.

2) can the 1850s US be described as a white supremacist society? I think it can, for obvious reasons.

3) can the 1950s US be described as a white supremacist society? I think it can. Jim Crow laws. Sundowner towns, Redlining, Mississippi Burning.

4) can the current US be described as a white supremacist society? I have come to the conclusion that viewing the dominate power structures in the US as being strongly influenced by white supremacy is a valid, though incomplete one.

If you reject that 'white-supremacist society' is a useful term, then perhaps you shouldn't have introduced it?

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#56

Post by eesmith »

aantthony wrote: post #14
InvaderFizz wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your view is that the 60+ million Americans that voted for Trump are, in fact, really voting for white supremacy then we aren't even living in the same reality and any further discussion is completely pointless. It really hurts any credibility someone may have granted you in a conversation when you ascribe to one side of a discussion a world view that is condemned by the vast majority of that side.

When they say "Support of the Trump administration is undeniably support for white supremacy" as if it were an undisputed fact, and without any argument at all, it really shows how they're incapable of considering an alternative worldview. To an ideologically enslaved mind it literally cannot be denied.

Since my full reply was flagged, I'll highlight its main point, which is to object to aantthony's statement "without any argument at all".

The linked-to document gives a pointer to its "citations/references", which is hosted on RPG.net. I then quoted those citations.

While many disagree with those arguments, that's quite different than saying they gave no arguments at all.

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#57

Post by RandomInteger4 »

mcphage wrote: post #41
RandomInteger4 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forcing them to cross deserts while sick with no food or water? Oh, wait, no, that's what their traffickers from Honduras and elsewhere are doing as they claim that those children belong to them when they reach the border so that they can receive higher priority treatment, whereupon they enter and recycle the kids back across the border.

> Oh, wait, no, that's what their traffickers from Honduras and elsewhere So you're using the fact that these kids are the victims of human trafficking, to make them suffer even more? Do you even listen to what you're saying?

[flagged]

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#58

Post by mcphage »

RandomInteger4 wrote: post #57
mcphage wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh, wait, no, that's what their traffickers from Honduras and elsewhere So you're using the fact that these kids are the victims of human trafficking, to make them suffer even more? Do you even listen to what you're saying?

[flagged]

> whilst denying funding for these facilities

They're getting $775 per person per day. People are trying to donate goods and are getting turned back. It's not a resource issue.

> which is saying something coming from me considering how generally paranoid I am personally

You may be paranoid, but your paranoia is pointing in the wrong direction.

> There's no basis for it. None whatsoever.

We're in the middle of a discussion about thousands of children being abused and mistreated in government facilities. That right there is a basis for comparison. If you can't even see that, then you're willfully closing your eyes.

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#59

Post by RickJWagner »

mcphage wrote: post #25
RickJWagner wrote: post #16

Shameful. It's fine to disagree with President Trump. It's fine to disagree with Democrats, too. Having an opinion is your right. But to slander and lie, and try to influence people in this way is just wrong. Let's be honest. President Trump has brought record low unemployment, rising wages, and justice reform to African Americans. His support among American Blacks has risen, not fallen. He is doing some good. Yet th…

> They turn racism from something useless into something they can use. This is what is truly 'deplorable'. No, I'm pretty sure it's putting kids into concentration camps that's deplorable. Nice try though.

An update on this one:

"The Holocaust, you’re talking about a tragedy of biblical proportion and one of the greatest scourges in history. Six million Jews died during the Holocaust; there is no comparison to the Holocaust, period”

"To draw an equivalency suggests one does not understand what happened in the Holocaust."

These from NY Gov (Democrat) Andrew Cuomo

Re: Ravelry, a Popular Knitting Site, Bans Pro-Trump Content

#60

Post by RandomInteger4 »

mcphage wrote: post #58
RandomInteger4 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> whilst denying funding for these facilities They're getting $775 per person per day. People are trying to donate goods and are getting turned back. It's not a resource issue. > which is saying something coming from me considering how generally paranoid I am personally You may be paranoid, but your paranoia is pointing in the wrong direction. > There's no basis for it. None whatsoever. We're in the middle of a discu…

Can you provide a source for that $775 figure? In May alone there were 144,000 illegal immigrants processed by the CBP. That's over $100,000,000 just for one month, which makes me skeptical of that figure off $775 / person being available.
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