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Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

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271–280 of 313 posts

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#271
> In practice, it is much more complicated: while a limited set of “validators” — aka miners — share a history of transactions in (individual) blocks that are chained together (i.e. a blockchain), what Libra actually exposes is the current state of the ledger. In practice this means that adding new transactions can be much quicker and more efficient — more akin to adding a line to a spreadsheet than rebuilding the entire spreadsheet from scratch.

The author seems to be referring to the two different accounting models in crupyotcurrency: the coin model and the account model.

The coin (aka UTXO) model mimics physical cash. A transaction changes ownership of a digital token, leaving a chain of ownership in its wake. This is the model used by Bitcoin.

The account model credits and debits specific amounts from an account. This is the model used by Ethereum.

The author seems to imply that the speed of a network depends on which accounting model is being used.

It doesn't. In both cases, signatures must be validated, and this is the most costly computation. In neither case is the entire chain of transactions reloaded to verify a single payment. Instead, the most recent state is extended.

Transaction volume is largely a function of how open the network is and how trusted the parties are that write blocks. The more open the network to membership by arbitrary players, the slower it will be. The less trust in those writing blocks, the slower it will be.

Bitcoin users value censorship resistance and insist on validating their own blocks (or at least they should). The network is configured make this possible by, for example, setting a block size limit among other features.

Libra will need none of this. Validators will be implicitly trusted. What they say goes. A certain minimum hardware spec can be set and enforced, ensuring fast payment processing, at the expense of censorship resistance and openness.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree the transaction rate and fee are horrid. But there are other coins that solve this problem in a dectralized manner. Also there are some block chains that all cross chain atomic swaps. I've been working with a blockchain called Xaya and there is mentions of maybe implementing that as well. I might help on that front after my game is finished. More importantly though. Xaya implements merged mining and you ca…

How does that help reduce fees? Excuse my naivety, but can you share a bit more about cross-chain atomic swaps, what does that mean?

The atomic cross-chain swapping means I can have assets or a coin on one chain and transfer it to another. In this case maybe transfer coins from bitcoin to the xaya blockchain for chi. It wouldn't really get rid of the transaction fees for bitcoin, but what it would do is allow you to transfer some amount of bitcoin out if you know you are going to be doing high frequency transactions. You could just do it on a lower fee blockchain and then put it back in your bitcoin account when you have done what you wanted to do.

There is another possibility on Xaya and I believe Ethereum has implemented as well now. On Xaya they are called game channels. The idea is that you allow a side branching chain to develop between an arbitrary number of people, then when a game is over you inject the end of the side chain back into the main chain and verify it. They invented it for near realtime verification between consenting parties, then you only pay the main transaction fee when you get back on the main block instead of very every action. But that type of system doesn't have to be only done with games obviously, that could be applied to anything.

If you are interested more in it, you can check this video out. They have lots of documentation and tutorials for the network as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMd9mvc8pqA

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#273
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes true, this is why I “dropped out of it” then eventually came back to it. The fact that I have Venezuelan friends who started hoarding it to avoid capital controls in their country convinced me of its usefulness and long-term viability.

So long as someone is there willing to pay the same price for those coins. Do the grocery stores, butchers and other providers accept Bitcoin there? How do they value their goods against a 'currency' that is growing X00% weekly?

You have brokers that move dollars for bitcoin. So you turn it to actual cash. The key part is that there is no bank involved at any step.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#274
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding a country’s ability to manipulate their own currency or execute monetary policy which is mostly in the direction of printing more: the end game of crypto seems to take this option off the table for all governments in the long term. Why? Because assuming all other things being equal (convenience as medium of exchange etc.), an individual is always going to prefer holding currency that isn’t subject to inflat…

Governments can easily ban and pursue anti-crypto measures to prevent anything such as money they can't control. Yannis Varoufakis said it best: the idea of apolitical money is a fiction and a dream. Money has always been associated to and controlled by governments. Bitcoin currently is actually heavily manipulated/moved by Tether which is controlled by Bitfinex.

Bitcoin is absolutely political. Its genesis block is a link to news denouncing banking corruption on iceland.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#275
post #45

> The largest leap will come last: Libra as a genuine currency, not simply a medium for transaction. This will be function of volume in the previous two use cases, and is understandably concerning to governments all over the world. Well that's certainly an understatement. This is literally the only mention of government through-out the entire article. The only mention of banks is in the previous paragraph stating the…

>> No government is going to let FB and any coalition do an end run around their national currency and their banking institutions. 1. I can see the US government and perhaps the Five Eyes ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes ) wanting this because it effectively reveals lots of global transactions they are not currently privy to w/o tedious work. I find it difficult to believe that all the relevant FiveEyes agen…

Couldn't the local government ask libra not to operate and if it does start blocking the revenue source of members such as Facebook?

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#276
post #45

> The largest leap will come last: Libra as a genuine currency, not simply a medium for transaction. This will be function of volume in the previous two use cases, and is understandably concerning to governments all over the world. Well that's certainly an understatement. This is literally the only mention of government through-out the entire article. The only mention of banks is in the previous paragraph stating the…

> No government is going to let FB and any coalition do an end run around their national currency and their banking institutions. They're also not going to partner with an international consortium to have them replaced with something they only partially control.

I disagree. Politicians from many countries have shown a willingness to sell out their own nation. With a high enough time preference it's entirely possible.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#277
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mild fluctuations of the Bitcoin price can look like a walk in the park compared to the Venezuelan local currency.

I'm not familiar with the history, but is Venezuela's currency constantly volatile or are recent events an anomaly? How do you define Bitcoin's fluctuations as 'mild' - i.e what are you comparing it to other than the local currency to determine stability?

The comment was mostly tongue in cheek. Venezuelan currency has been hyperinflating for a while. So people are used to referencing prices in currencies other than the one used for the actual payment.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#278
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of the reasons I dropped out of crypto for years, most of its supporters were completely delusional and tragically uninformed about actual banks. The reason I stayed in is because Bitcoin solved a seemingly intractable problem, it works in the real world, and it's survived and even thrived in the face of fierce attacks for a decade. Yes, there are many shills who are delusional and ignorant. Yes, specul…

> and it's survived and even thrived in the face of fierce attacks for a decade What fierce attacks has bitcoin faced? Sure, lots of people mock and criticize it, but no real action has been taken. The people criticizing it have just as much influence (or maybe even less) than the delusional and ignorant true believers. To me, a fierce attack would be regulatory action taken by various world governments, but that has…

As someone put it: we are picking a huge bear with a stick. We haven't seen anything yet, the war against crypto will be bloody.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#279
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I really don't know why this isn't a larger part of this conversation. That's been the elephant in the room ever since Satoshi published its paper more than a decade ago. When I discuss with cryptocurrency enthusiasts I often get the impression that they think that banks are this kind of useless parasite body that somehow appears like mosquitoes around a pond in summer. That they only serve to basically operate ATMs…

This also bothers me about the end of Fight Club. You think destroying bank records will remove the power inequality from the system? Good luck with that, kid. Power has money, but money isn't power. It's the table scraps the rest of us chase after. It's also why you can tax the rich all you want and it won't take their power away. The transactions that truly matter to them aren't usually denominated in dollars. Cash…

> Look at stories about nouveau rich not being taken seriously.

Yeah because there are actual differences between new rich and the old rich.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#280
Technically what Ethereum, Bitcoin and Libra are doing are each variations of Byzantine Fault Tolerance based consensus. The key difference is that the former two are permission less and the latter is permissive. Permission less in this case means that anyone can start a validator node and verify transactions this typically involves either proof of work or stake. Permissive means that only some validators are able to do that and that the consensus is based on verified identity: each validator has a known identity and only explicitly trusts certain other well known validators.

As the article nodes, it would be a mistake to assume that that is only Facebook. What Libra does is actually similar to Stellar and Ripple, which are also based on permissive BFTs.

Since I've used Stellar, I know a bit more about how that is structured. In short, in Stellar, anyone can start a validator and start validating transactions. This is commonly done by people with a need to validate transactions for scaling reasons. Every validator is configured with a list of other validators that they trust and a consensus quorum that needs to be reached between those for a transaction to be acceptable.

The flip side is that for your transactions to be acceptable to others, they'd have to trust you. In practice these sort of bi-directional trust relations only happen on a need to have basis; for example because you and your business relations are swapping the same tokens with each other and have a business need to trust each other's work. The extended network of mutually trusting validators that trust each other directly or indirectly is the basis for the consensus. After some incidents with the Stellar network halting its consensus, Stellar is actually moving to reduce the reliance of the network on their own validators. The recent outage in May was actually root caused by several non SDF owned validators going down. This sounds bad but it is actually a safety feature: stellar will prefer partition tolerance and consistency over availability. Ethereum and Bitcoin have had issues with favoring availability over consistency. If you are running a bank, that is kind of a big deal.

Libra is launching with a quite broad consortium that each will run validators. I imagine that like in Stellar, each of those validators will eventually be able to start trusting other validators at their own discretion. I'm assuming that that is what Facebook means when they say they will eventually open up.

It seems like initially this will be tied to deals with Calibra, which is a subsidiary of Facebook and which is responsible for hosting the reserve that backs the Libra, and other stable coins that will be running on the network. A key difference with Stellar, which is run and controlled by a foundation representing its members, Calibra is instead a commercial entity owned by Facebook. Presumably the consortium members have some kind of contractual agreement with Calibra about this. In other words, Facebook as a owner of Calibra is a bit more special than everyone else. I imagine they also hold patents, trademarks, etc. as well. To be clear, the software itself is Apache licensed.

Like many, I wrote up my own thoughts on Libra and wrote a lengthty article. You may find it here: https://dev.to/jillesvangurp/libra-blockchains-and-the-meani...

In short, what they are doing makes sense practically, technically, and legally. People are obviously talking a lot about legislation currently and Facebook's motivations. My impression is that governments are mostly still applying and interpreting existing laws when it comes to blockchains and are actually quite slow in responding in a coherent and timely fashion with new laws. My guess is that Facebook and others are counting on this and are looking to create a financial reality where shutting this down becomes economically more difficult. In short, once they are moving lots of money around, shutting them down becomes impractical.

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