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“I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

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Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#31

Post by zaptheimpaler »

doesnt_know wrote: post #24
Apocryphon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been said that George W. Bush already did that decades ago, shedding his New Englander blue-blood upbringing for Texan rustic.

I dunno, I don't think it's very healthy that when presented with a bumbling idiot in a position of power you start to think it's a big ruse and they are actually a genius. It's best to just assume they are in fact, a bumbling idiot.

In general sure, but when that person happens to be leading a nation, I would not be so quick to jump to that conclusion.

Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#32

Post by dang »

asabjorn wrote: post #17
sittingnut wrote: post #8

politics allowed here?

This does seem like a contradiction of rules.

There's no rule against politics on HN as such (and never has been: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17014869).

The rule is against garden-variety politics—the kind with no intellectually interesting aspect: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Many good HN submissions have some political overlap. That's inevitable and fine as long as people don't use the site for political battle, which takes discussions out of the range this site exists for (the curiosity range). I've written about this a fair bit: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#33

Post by eschaton »

doesnt_know wrote: post #24
Apocryphon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been said that George W. Bush already did that decades ago, shedding his New Englander blue-blood upbringing for Texan rustic.

I dunno, I don't think it's very healthy that when presented with a bumbling idiot in a position of power you start to think it's a big ruse and they are actually a genius. It's best to just assume they are in fact, a bumbling idiot.

When there are actually samples of his speech before and after moving to Texas, and when he was Governor of Texas versus President of the United States, it kind of lends more credence to the claim.

Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#34

Post by neonate »

Arbalest wrote: post #18

He must have recognised the seachange of populism and created a persona to suit. Reminds me of the BDG video on Polygon on how to create the perfect E3 presentation. Particularly the part about Gaffes. I suppose this was a long time coming, in marketing circles, it is agreed that "Generation X" was the first "Jaded" generation, and I feel like there's some link there. Marketing to that generation often involves takin…

> He must have recognised the seachange of populism

In 2006? That seems far fetched.

Your point about cynicism and politicians of his generation being the first to ironically cater to it seems more solid to me.

Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#35

Post by duxup »

I've been lucky enough to know some US state level politicians for quite some time, not major figures, but folks who did it most of their life (while doing other things too) and were successful at it.

I often got the felling that they did that thing, and even pushed the issues they did... because they were successful at it and it fit their personality. Most were not idealists despite what they said IMO, I suspect many if pressed to change their positions did not really care about the issues outside of a couple topics at most (and due to the winds of change in US politics most actually supported surprisingly different issues over time). They were just very good at getting along with people, shaking hands, negotiating deals, had the social skills that provided them the financal and political support hey needed to keep going.

In many ways it seemed to be a lifestyle that once they were successful, was also a sort of social life, and to some extent a thrill seeking event (elections are exciting) that just kept them going as people.

Not to pass the buck on any moral choices they make, they're certainly responsible, but I suspect for may they just sort of fall into it, and just don't want to quit the lifestyle as it fits who they are.

Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#36

Post by crdoconnor »

ruytlm wrote: post #29

I am reminded of a post I once read[0] on how coyotes are 'too clever by half'; smart enough to realise how to win each skirmish, but without realising they're losing the metagame. Johnson strikes me as someone who has learned to 'hack' the skirmishes (e.g. by playing the fool when giving speeches as discussed) in order to win in the short term, but who seems oblivious to (or to be willfully disregarding) the long te…

He is a fool who pretends to be playing one. The upper echelons of the conservative party are not at all meritocratic - you do not have to be whip smart to get there, but being personable counts. He's made enough self inflicted strategic blunders.

Nonetheless he holds a certain appeal for the upper classes in the UK. I don't think his appeal translates down to people who work for a living though.

Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#37

Post by Bakary »

This calls to mind the idea that our world is uniquely suited to psychopaths (or whatever the current DSM-V term is). Cities are too large for people to be held accountable as a villager would. There is too much information for scandals to have consequences. The thirst for confidence and charm is so intense that charisma or presence is by far the most useful quality a person can have. Modern life is filled with so much stress that those who cannot feel fear or empathy are highly advantaged.

In the end you can have amorphous politicians who can change their identity at any moment and be hailed for it, because they provide some form of emotional value to people in a world where nothing matters anymore anyway.

Looking at the new generation of entertainers on streaming or video platforms, many of them seem to have dark triad traits.

Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#38

Post by sonnyblarney »

whatshisface wrote: post #30
sonnyblarney wrote: post #12

If this is true, the man is obviously a genius. That said, the 'act of the fool' mightn't work in operational reality, because if everyone believes he's an unprepared bumpkin, then that's the reality, and he won't be respected. His former editor at the Telegraph had some very harsh words about him, along the lines of 'he only cares about himself, he's totally unprepared, has no idea what he is doing' etc. and I'll ga…

Critically, he was doing it at random awards shows where his expertise wasn't relevant. You could probably pull this off with no risk to your reputation if you pulled together (I.e. put the "pulled together" tape in your mental Walkman) when it was expected of you.

I think the point of the story was not that he was a 'good speaker' but rather, his foolhardiness is a populist act.

Which implies that his kind of bumbling attitude in popular politics might very well be calculated, i.e. he's not a fool, he's brilliant.

I'll buy that he's borderline genius with the populist bits, but I also believe basically everyone in international politics who say he's a clown, totally unprepared, never serious. Some of the things serious entities have to say about him are pretty bad.

Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#39

Post by jancsika »

eschaton wrote: post #33
doesnt_know wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, I don't think it's very healthy that when presented with a bumbling idiot in a position of power you start to think it's a big ruse and they are actually a genius. It's best to just assume they are in fact, a bumbling idiot.

When there are actually samples of his speech before and after moving to Texas, and when he was Governor of Texas versus President of the United States, it kind of lends more credence to the claim.

There are two essential options:

1. W "knew stuff" and chose to present himself as a Texan

2. W "didn't know stuff" and chose to present himself as a Texan

The second option is by far more likely. For one of many examples take the following clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdimK1onR4o

Is there any evidence at all that W actually knew what tribal sovereignty meant yet chose to completely bumble the answer here?

Re: “I thought I'd share this Boris Johnson story with you”

#40

Post by whatshisface »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #38
whatshisface wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Critically, he was doing it at random awards shows where his expertise wasn't relevant. You could probably pull this off with no risk to your reputation if you pulled together (I.e. put the "pulled together" tape in your mental Walkman) when it was expected of you.

I think the point of the story was not that he was a 'good speaker' but rather, his foolhardiness is a populist act. Which implies that his kind of bumbling attitude in popular politics might very well be calculated, i.e. he's not a fool, he's brilliant. I'll buy that he's borderline genius with the populist bits, but I also believe basically everyone in international politics who say he's a clown, totally unprepared…

Suppose you were a calculating actor like this guy, and you wanted to insult him. Would you design the insult around his private persona, which only you and a select few were privy to, or around his public persona, so that the public will agree with the insult? If the truth doesn't matter to you, you will join in on the illusion of him being disorganized, because that's what the public already believes.
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