Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#151

Post by sprafa » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

tiluha wrote: post #144

sprafa wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons I dropped out of crypto for years, most of its supporters were completely delusional and tragically uninformed about actual banks. I always considered two datapoints to be fulcral A) ease of use, which Bitcoin has never had and B) potential to be overtaken by an actual bank and twisted into whatever purposes it wanted due to the 51% error. That is, how hard would be it for JPMorgan or Deust…

I think you are misinformed about how bitcoin works. Bitcoin doesn't care how much of it you have, as it uses Proof-of-Work not Proof-of-Stake. The only thing that matters is you computational power. Now it is true that large banks could just buy lots of ASICs and try to beat the network, but that would mean a continued investment: As soon as they stop mining, the network would return to normal. They can hurt bitcoin…

The transaction rate is deadly in my opinion, not just bad. A year or so ago the rates were running at ridiculous prices. It’s a black eye on the Bitcoin Core that they haven’t fixed this nor do they seem inclined to (the Bitcoin Cash Core seemed convinced they wanted nothing else but to control Bitcoin entirely).

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#152

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

sprafa wrote: post #101

simias wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I really don't know why this isn't a larger part of this conversation. That's been the elephant in the room ever since Satoshi published its paper more than a decade ago. When I discuss with cryptocurrency enthusiasts I often get the impression that they think that banks are this kind of useless parasite body that somehow appears like mosquitoes around a pond in summer. That they only serve to basically operate ATMs…

This is one of the reasons I dropped out of crypto for years, most of its supporters were completely delusional and tragically uninformed about actual banks. I always considered two datapoints to be fulcral A) ease of use, which Bitcoin has never had and B) potential to be overtaken by an actual bank and twisted into whatever purposes it wanted due to the 51% error. That is, how hard would be it for JPMorgan or Deust…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#153

Post by buboard » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

nine_k wrote: post #78

buboard wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banking has existed for a few centuries, and state controlled money is something recent too, it used to be that multiple sources minted coins. And bitcoin which has existed for 10 years and is far more threatening to governments has not been extinguished.

Gold coins can be minted at multiple places, or admitted foreign, because their value is gold by weight. Mass fiat money are no more than 2 centuries old, in most places less than 60 years (see Bretton-Woods). They have to be tightly controled by state.

Gold was not mostly used by the aristocracy. Coins for laypeople were things like silver, copper or bronze. People also bartered.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#154

Post by JoeSamoa » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

geezerjay wrote: post #127

jpkiser wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are many Bitcoiners who believe that everyone will become their own bank but I believe a more common sentiment is the idea off full backed reserved. But a great I feel that a more common belief held by Bitcoiners is that the "inherent" issues with capitalism come from fractional reserve banking. Now for the first time in history there is a form of money that you can prove in a matter of seconds that your m…

> Now for the first time in history there is a form of money that you can prove in a matter of seconds that your money didn't move when you gave custody to the bank. Why do you believe this has any relevance at all? People want to buy stuff, not exchange bill with serial number #abcxyz with stuff. And from my example you can easily understand why your assertion is quite wrong to begin with.

I care about my exact bills and your exact bills. I care. Maybe you don't, but I do and so does the person you replied to. That makes at least two of us.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#155

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:30 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #74

gooseus wrote: post #45

> The largest leap will come last: Libra as a genuine currency, not simply a medium for transaction. This will be function of volume in the previous two use cases, and is understandably concerning to governments all over the world. Well that's certainly an understatement. This is literally the only mention of government through-out the entire article. The only mention of banks is in the previous paragraph stating the…

>I really don't know why this isn't a larger part of this conversation. That's been the elephant in the room ever since Satoshi published its paper more than a decade ago. When I discuss with cryptocurrency enthusiasts I often get the impression that they think that banks are this kind of useless parasite body that somehow appears like mosquitoes around a pond in summer. That they only serve to basically operate ATMs…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#156

Post by chaoticmass » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #74

gooseus wrote: post #45

> The largest leap will come last: Libra as a genuine currency, not simply a medium for transaction. This will be function of volume in the previous two use cases, and is understandably concerning to governments all over the world. Well that's certainly an understatement. This is literally the only mention of government through-out the entire article. The only mention of banks is in the previous paragraph stating the…

>I really don't know why this isn't a larger part of this conversation. That's been the elephant in the room ever since Satoshi published its paper more than a decade ago. When I discuss with cryptocurrency enthusiasts I often get the impression that they think that banks are this kind of useless parasite body that somehow appears like mosquitoes around a pond in summer. That they only serve to basically operate ATMs…

I can't pay my taxes in Crypto, so in that sense I don't think will ever completely replace fiat currency and the banks.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#157

Post by buboard » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

gooseus wrote: post #150

buboard wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banking has existed for a few centuries, and state controlled money is something recent too, it used to be that multiple sources minted coins. And bitcoin which has existed for 10 years and is far more threatening to governments has not been extinguished.

> state controlled money is something recent too, it used to be that multiple sources minted coins I don't think you're considering a long enough time scale, the minting of coins with the likeness of rulers and symbols of the power of the state is as old as the concept of currency and rulers. There have been instances where companies printed their own script and new non-authoritarian nations might struggle for a bit…

Yeap what has changed is the scale. Never before have states exerted so strict monetary control in such vast areas. For medieval kings it was just impossible to prevent the use of other people's coins.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#158

Post by MichaelConlon » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:39 PM UTC

sprafa wrote: post #148

kitten_smuggler wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of the reasons I dropped out of crypto for years, most of its supporters were completely delusional and tragically uninformed about actual banks. I don't think you understand bitcoin as well as you think you do. 51% attacks do not work like this.

I would welcome a correction! My impression is if anyone has 51% of all bitcoin they can write whatever they’d like on the blockchain and validate it at will. Is this wrong?

Bitcoin uses proof of work [1] to verify transactions on the network. For someone to effectively rewrite the network they would need to control 51% of the total computing power (in hashes/sec) on the bitcoin network.

[1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_work

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#159

Post by z3c0 » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:43 PM UTC

sprafa wrote: post #148

kitten_smuggler wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of the reasons I dropped out of crypto for years, most of its supporters were completely delusional and tragically uninformed about actual banks. I don't think you understand bitcoin as well as you think you do. 51% attacks do not work like this.

I would welcome a correction! My impression is if anyone has 51% of all bitcoin they can write whatever they’d like on the blockchain and validate it at will. Is this wrong?

Sort of, yeah. It would be 51% of verification nodes. If you bought 51% of all Bitcoin, but it was verified by everybody else in the network, you don't actually have any power to decide if your transactions were valid or not. If you controlled 51% of the nodes, you would have majority control over which transactions are valid.

Re: Facebook, Libra, and the Long Game

#160

Post by magnamerc » Tue, Jun 25, 2019, 6:44 PM UTC

sprafa wrote: post #148

kitten_smuggler wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of the reasons I dropped out of crypto for years, most of its supporters were completely delusional and tragically uninformed about actual banks. I don't think you understand bitcoin as well as you think you do. 51% attacks do not work like this.

I would welcome a correction! My impression is if anyone has 51% of all bitcoin they can write whatever they’d like on the blockchain and validate it at will. Is this wrong?

Even for PoS cryptos where you require 51% of the currency to control the network, it would become prohibitively expensive to buy up 51% of the circulating supply due to market dynamics. PoS is arguably more secure than PoW. Arguably.