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The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

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Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#211

Post by atoav »

mikk14 wrote: post #138
atoav wrote: post #73

At the Biennale in Venice (one of the most important art shows there is) I saw a work which looked like this: There was a metal frame holding two glas plates with ventian sediment inbetween (sand, soil, mud). In the center there was another metal frame which formed a hole. There also were to PCB boards with ATMEGA micro controllers. In the text the artist claimed she controlled the biome of the soil with an AI using…

Maybe that's exactly the point she was trying to make :-)

That is why I added the “(?)”, I wasn’t sure about it either :)

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#212

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

bodono wrote: post #197
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #194

>> Deep learning algorithms have proven to be better than humans at spotting lung cancer, a development that if applied at scale could save more than 30,000 patients per year. It's not easy to scale deep learning because deep neural nets have a very strong tendency to overfit to their training dataset and are very bad at generalising outside their training dataset. In a medical context this means that, while a partic…

This statement is false, as recently demonstrated by DeepMind on retinal scans. Not only did they generalize outside of the training dataset but they were able to use the features learned by the model on an entirely different type of scanning device . https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-018-0107-6.epdf?autho... "Moreover, we demonstrate that the tissue segmentations produced by our architecture act as a device-ind…

In the paper you link to, the researchers trained an image classifier on data collected from 32 sites of the Moorfiel NHS trust. The trained model was tested on, presumably held-out, data from the same dataset.

This is an example of scaling a model beyond a dataset collected from a single site. It is not contrary to what I say in my comment.

The researchers further tested their model on data obtained from a different device than it was originally trained on. This data was collected from the same hospital sites. The original model performed poorly on this new data and was re-trained to improve its performance.

This does not demonstrate an ability to generalise to unseen data- only an ability to adjust a model to new data, by re-training.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#213

Post by Chris2048 »

minikites wrote: post #190
michalu wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 90% of modern art, the "point they're trying to make" is whatever is the most convenient at the occasion. For the artists themselves rarely know as modern art is as much a BS-industrial complex as the AI.

Art is more complicated than that and your dismissive attitude misses the point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67EKAIY43kg

So, at one point the video says "The quality and character of his line work is astounding. The restrained use of color is exquisite."

Do you believe the scribbles are "amazing scribbles"?

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#214

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

atoav wrote: post #206
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Accidentally (?) she managed to create the best representation of AI I have seen in art: all that counts is that you call it AI even if it is a simple algorithm. Backpropagation, which most researchers will agree is an AI algorithm, is a "simple algorithm". So are many other AI algorithms, some of which are simple enough to be understood so well that most people don't recognise them as AI anymore: search algorithm…

The point was that her PCB wasn’t connected to anything at all. She claimed there were pumps and sensors, but there was literally nothing. There were cables etc and it certainly would fool someone who has no idea of circuit design and electronics, but I happen to know a bit about it and the circuit almost certainly didn’t do what it claimed it did.

Ah, I see. I must have misread your comment. I thought you meant that the PCB didn't have anything like (a hardware implementation of?) an AI algorithm on it, not that it had nothing at all on it.

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#216

Post by bodono »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #212
bodono wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statement is false, as recently demonstrated by DeepMind on retinal scans. Not only did they generalize outside of the training dataset but they were able to use the features learned by the model on an entirely different type of scanning device . https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-018-0107-6.epdf?autho... "Moreover, we demonstrate that the tissue segmentations produced by our architecture act as a device-ind…

In the paper you link to, the researchers trained an image classifier on data collected from 32 sites of the Moorfiel NHS trust. The trained model was tested on, presumably held-out, data from the same dataset. This is an example of scaling a model beyond a dataset collected from a single site. It is not contrary to what I say in my comment. The researchers further tested their model on data obtained from a different…

It contradicts your statement: "it's not as simple as having someone at Hospital X download a pretrained model in Tensorflow and train its last few layers on some CT scans" Because in this case it was as easy as taking a model from a totally different modality and retraining the first (in this case) few layers to accommodate the new device. Furthermore the original training used 15k scans and the retraining only required 152 scans. This is totally reasonable and clear evidence of transfer and generalization. Moreover, even human operators require retraining on new devices!

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#217

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

benreesman wrote: post #159

If everyone sophisticated enough to be on this site would just use the term “applied computational statistics” (even just in their own thoughts) instead of “deep learning” or AI, the world would be a better place. Gradient descent finds some fun minimia (my current venture is heavily based on that idea) but to assign more agency to Adam or RMSProp than they merit is just an exercise in feeding the trolls.

Could you please explain in what sense deep learning is "applied computational statistics"?

What about classical planning, SAT solvers, automated theorem proving, game-playing agents and classical search? Could you please explain how one or more of those are "applied computational statistics"?

Further- I don't understand the comment about "agency". Could you clarify? Why is "agency" required for a technique or an algorithm to be considered an AI technique?

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#218

Post by marvin »

atoav wrote: post #73

At the Biennale in Venice (one of the most important art shows there is) I saw a work which looked like this: There was a metal frame holding two glas plates with ventian sediment inbetween (sand, soil, mud). In the center there was another metal frame which formed a hole. There also were to PCB boards with ATMEGA micro controllers. In the text the artist claimed she controlled the biome of the soil with an AI using…

You should track down the artist and ask them whether this was intentional, and if not, point out the unintended, poignant commentaty it represents on the state of AI in the industry. I bet they’d love it!

Re: The BS-Industrial Complex of Phony A.I.

#220

Post by olalonde »

atoav wrote: post #73

At the Biennale in Venice (one of the most important art shows there is) I saw a work which looked like this: There was a metal frame holding two glas plates with ventian sediment inbetween (sand, soil, mud). In the center there was another metal frame which formed a hole. There also were to PCB boards with ATMEGA micro controllers. In the text the artist claimed she controlled the biome of the soil with an AI using…

Same thing with "blockchain".
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