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Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

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Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#111
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

strong irreversibility sounds nice for a financial business of for b2b, but from a common usage perspective it has no benefit whatsoever.

You can build reversibility on top of irreversibility but not vice versa.

I understand that there are important use cases where irreversibility is must. My issue is that in a typical consumer-focused market (like most if not all online shopping or physical shops) it is only to the advantage of the seller and has essentially no benefit for the buyer.

Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#112
post #76

Sure it'll be nice to make easy money off the interest on deposits. And it'll be nice to make money on the analytics that can be run on all the worlds' transactions. Great. But the biggest pay off is that once consumers buy into Libra as a thing on its own, the policy can be changed to no longer link it to any basket of currencies, and it can then be issued without that annoying and expensive currency-buying-thing. J…

You’re missing the part where Treasury agents swarm the Libra offices and arrest everyone for various flimsy charges. If there is one single thing that enrages the government more than anything else, it is denying it revenue.

libra is in switzerland

Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#113
Where to begin. This article is full of big words and drama. I've been reading through the whitepapers and discussions and there seem to be an awful lot of people reading all sorts of things in this stuff. What worries me is that it mostly is people responding to interpretations rather than the raw facts. Big dramatic outcomes make for awesome blog articles. But that doesn't mean it's the only outcome; or even the likely outcome.

I try to look at this a bit more rationally. Given that blockchains have grown economically in the last few years for reasons that you may or may not agree with philosophically, morally, etc., it is not surprising that existing entities with economic wealth are looking to get in on the action. From this point of view, what Libra is doing is entirely unsurprising.

From a technical point of view, what Facebook is doing with Libra is cherry picking what seems to work in the market. Consensus models seem to work for the likes of Ripple, Stellar and a few others. There are a lot of people who object against this model for all sorts of reasons. But it undeniably works and scales quite well. A system this ambitious needs to scale. It's not optional.

I don't really see how Libra could have picked anything else given the current state of the art. Mining seems a dead end in terms of scalability and off by orders of magnitude from where it needs to be. There are lots of technical issues and even when it works, things like 50% attacks, insane energy consumption, etc. make this a non starter. Ethereum has been trying to switch to proof of stake for some time now and the are also trying to introduce sharding. Maybe this is fixable, but the reality is that they are nowhere close to shipping something that scales by the time Libra intends to open for business.

So, when Facebook decided to do this, building their own platform was a foregone conclusion because what's out there just isn't anywhere near good enough and basing it on consensus algorithms was the only logical choice technically.

The only relevant question is, why is it just Facebook doing this and how long is it going to take for the rest of the world to react? I'm talking about the likes of Google, Apple, banks, the oil industry, anyone with economic resources basically. They'll all want in on the action and not all of them are going to be inventing their own blockchain like platform (using the term loosely here). I doubt they are going to have Facebook have all the fun.

The follow up debate about the legalities and regulations is also going to be interesting. My guess is governments will react slowly and by the time they start making bigger decisions, it will be too late. Once you have a few "too big to fail" type companies doing stuff like this, they are not just going to pull the plug.

So, I expect things will heat up shortly. I think this is a good thing. We need competition of ideas and approaches. If what Libra is doing bothers you, stop whining and do something better. Now is a good time to get started with that.

Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#114
post #37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can’t that be done through easily through Paypal ? (or Western Union, I just never tried)

You need a bank account with Paypal still. This is direct payment into your personal virtual wallet (supposedly not linked to your real identity) avoiding all banks.

Depending on your country you don’t. Paypal needs a bank or a card, and for instance in France cards can be prepaid (supermaket chains can make their own).

All of that will be tied to a real identity, but I am not sure Libra will also be completely free of these ties. There must be a point where to use your wallet you’ll have to justify your identity (i.e. above some amount or some kind of purchases you hit KYC requirements)

Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In cypherpunk terms, what’s dreamy about a crypto currency with no anonymity, that shifts power from international democratic governments to private US corporations?

Is Bitcoin governed democratically?

No, the consensus could be defined democratic maybe, but the coin and protocol are clearly not.

Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#116
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing, unless you're a anarcho-capitalist libertarian.

I highly doubt anarcho capitalists would want to replace the government with another, even worse government

But perhaps they wish companies became independent of the Federal Reserve, and more in control of the value of their own currency, both in terms of exchange rates and the ends to which they can be used or not.

Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#117
"Of course, those big company Association members, like Visa and Mastercard, all paid $10 million dollars for the privilege of functioning as validators on the network. Why would they do that? Because they’re going to make a lot of money." --- Long ago I was a management consultant for Amex advising on micropayments (this was decades ago). The consultants answer is always to make a bunch of small bets in a maybe emerging space to preserve optionality. It looks good on a presentation, makes the board reasonably content that they have a future looking strategy, leads to fun follow up work identifying bets which are financially irrelevant to the company if they go to zero, etc...

This isn't some grand strategy of Visa and Mastercard. $10MM to those companies is a write-off FOMO punt. If they had put in 20x that amount I would be paying more attention.

Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#118

Libra isn't a cypherpunk wet dream, but it moves us in that direction and thats a good thing. This article is written from the perspective that crypto mass-adoption is right around the corner (i.e. just a few UX tweaks) and that Libra will displace the crypto-utopia that could-have-been. I couldn't disagree more. The lack of adoption is a combo of a 1) network "dead-zone", 2) reversal risk, and 3) regulatory friction…

> The lack of adoption is a combo of a 1) network "dead-zone", 2) reversal risk, and 3) regulatory friction.

No, no, no. It’s the lack of a killer app, which the author bizarrely confuses as the lack of a phone app with a good UI. What does cryptocurrency (or a currency managed by a company) do that the fiat system doesn’t, /from the perspective of a consumer/? In other words, what am I currently using USD for that would be significantly easier or cheaper with crypto? Nothing. The majority of my money goes to taxes, loan payments on large assets, and food. Those are facilitated by... the government, banks, and a bunch of merchants who are not involved in this project. Good luck to Libra!

Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#119
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nation in nation state is pretty recent addition and already dying off (fortunately), but the state owing allegiance to its citizens (ever imperfect) is better than slide back to feudal-authoritarian corporation that is in no way on the hook for anything towards the common man.

> corporation that is in no way on the hook for anything towards the common man. It is, because corporations have stronger incentives than governments to benefit the common man.

Megacorps only need to benefit a large number of people, where democracies need to benefit a majority.

In theory.

Re: Libra, a Cyberpunk Nightmare in the Midst of Crypto Spring

#120
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s actually the opposite. States reduce choices available to customers. See my sibling comment for an example: the cable industry.

It is not that simple. Policy can increase or decrease competition. Breaking up Ma Bell as an example. Overall governments increase standards which can lead to few players but it can also help an industry grow quicker and allow for more complex/value products/services which creates an industry around it helping support it (shopify)

> Breaking up Ma Bell as an example.

The Ma Bell monopoly was created by government in the first place.

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