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Ends of the Urth

the-tls.co.uk

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Re: Ends of the Urth

#11

Post by catacombs »

dmitriid wrote: post #7
glangdale wrote: post #2

Wolfe is terrific, and terrifically underrated. Some of his efforts I find unreadable ("The Knight", "The Wizard Knight") and some banal, but when he's good, he's really good . "There Are Doors" is my personal favourite - low key, complex and affecting. The Book of the New Sun is probably the most famous (and deservedly so) and it also bears rereading. Just as pleasing is the fact that the Book of the New Sun is a ra…

Just read "the Book of the New Sun" in its entirety and I can't understand the appeal people find in it. The author really enjoys telling stories, and is very bad at telling a story. The world is glorious, and he does nothing with it. The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist who goes on long monologues about women as nothing more than objects (and many more monologues that are rarely insightful). The pr…

> Just read "the Book of the New Sun" in its entirety and I can't understand the appeal people find in it. The author really enjoys telling stories, and is very bad at telling a story. The world is glorious, and he does nothing with it. The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist who goes on long monologues about women as nothing more than objects (and many more monologues that are rarely insightful). The protagonist never changes, the story jumps from a chance encounter to a deus ex machina and back through random events of no consequence. But, as with literature, its very subjective, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've been hesitant about reading BOTNS, and this just confirms my suspicions that I should skip it.

Re: Ends of the Urth

#12

Post by autarch »

dmitriid wrote: post #7
glangdale wrote: post #2

Wolfe is terrific, and terrifically underrated. Some of his efforts I find unreadable ("The Knight", "The Wizard Knight") and some banal, but when he's good, he's really good . "There Are Doors" is my personal favourite - low key, complex and affecting. The Book of the New Sun is probably the most famous (and deservedly so) and it also bears rereading. Just as pleasing is the fact that the Book of the New Sun is a ra…

Just read "the Book of the New Sun" in its entirety and I can't understand the appeal people find in it. The author really enjoys telling stories, and is very bad at telling a story. The world is glorious, and he does nothing with it. The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist who goes on long monologues about women as nothing more than objects (and many more monologues that are rarely insightful). The pr…

"The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist ..."

Yes, Severian is not a particularly good person, but does that make this a bad series of books? I don't think Wolfe is trying to present him as good, which would be hard to swallow. This is written entirely from Severian's viewpoint, not Wolfe's.

In the sequel-ish series, the Long Sun books, the protagonist _is_ a very good person, and he's a marked contrast to Severian.

Re: Ends of the Urth

#13

Post by egypturnash »

alphadevx wrote: post #4

SPOILER ALERT. I'm reading the first volume of The Book of The New Sun right now for the first time, so was surprised that Neil introduced a spoiler in the first paragraph of the linked article so I had to stop reading it...

It’s a spoiler for a completely different and unrelated novel. All he really says about New Sun is that despite his claims to remember everything, Severian is an unreliable narrator, that it may be useful to look up the older stories connected with the names of characters (especially if they share names with Catholic saints) and that "things returning to life" is a recurring theme in the book, which is worth paying attention to.

He also says that Wolfe told him who Severian's mother is, but leaves that undisclosed.

Re: Ends of the Urth

#14

Post by fmoralesc »

autarch wrote: post #12
dmitriid wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just read "the Book of the New Sun" in its entirety and I can't understand the appeal people find in it. The author really enjoys telling stories, and is very bad at telling a story. The world is glorious, and he does nothing with it. The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist who goes on long monologues about women as nothing more than objects (and many more monologues that are rarely insightful). The pr…

"The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist ..." Yes, Severian is not a particularly good person, but does that make this a bad series of books? I don't think Wolfe is trying to present him as good, which would be hard to swallow. This is written entirely from Severian's viewpoint, not Wolfe's. In the sequel-ish series, the Long Sun books, the protagonist _is_ a very good person, and he's a marked contras…

And in the Short Sun books, the protagonist is yet again a different kind of man, oscillating between both extremes.

Re: Ends of the Urth

#15

Post by alphadevx »

egypturnash wrote: post #13
alphadevx wrote: post #4

SPOILER ALERT. I'm reading the first volume of The Book of The New Sun right now for the first time, so was surprised that Neil introduced a spoiler in the first paragraph of the linked article so I had to stop reading it...

It’s a spoiler for a completely different and unrelated novel. All he really says about New Sun is that despite his claims to remember everything, Severian is an unreliable narrator, that it may be useful to look up the older stories connected with the names of characters (especially if they share names with Catholic saints) and that "things returning to life" is a recurring theme in the book, which is worth paying a…

I did not stick around to read it all, the first hint of a spoiler sent me back here to warn others. Neil knows the material really well, he wrote the introduction to the recent limited edition of The Book of the New Sun for the Folio Society for example, so I should have trusted him not to blow it.

Re: Ends of the Urth

#16

Post by olvy0 »

I've always thought Gene Wolfe and David Lynch are similar in tone, so to speak, although obviously they work in different mediums and have different interests. Their similarity, IMO, is in the way they obscure the basic narrative behind a veil of misdirections and symbolism, while using plain language and everyday locations that they twist just so, to create a kind of surrealism. This surrealism is painstakingly constructed from pieces of modern culture (Lynch) or SF classics (Wolfe), mixed with autobiographical pieces. I personally enjoy reading Wolfe and viewing Lynch for the first time the same way I enjoy looking at a Dali or Magritte painting, just having my brain tickled with the wealth of strange details that were obviously well thought and put together with a purpose, although this purpose alludes me on first viewing/reading and might perhaps continue to allude me in the future.

Caveat: this is just a very general feeling I have. I haven't read all of Wolfe's books, nor have I seen all of Lynch's movies (although I have read/watched most of their oeuvre). I'm also not from the US, and English is not my first language, so I might be missing a lot of nuances.

Re: Ends of the Urth

#17

Post by egypturnash »

alphadevx wrote: post #15
egypturnash wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a spoiler for a completely different and unrelated novel. All he really says about New Sun is that despite his claims to remember everything, Severian is an unreliable narrator, that it may be useful to look up the older stories connected with the names of characters (especially if they share names with Catholic saints) and that "things returning to life" is a recurring theme in the book, which is worth paying a…

I did not stick around to read it all, the first hint of a spoiler sent me back here to warn others. Neil knows the material really well, he wrote the introduction to the recent limited edition of The Book of the New Sun for the Folio Society for example, so I should have trusted him not to blow it.

This article is that introduction.

Re: Ends of the Urth

#18

Post by dmitriid »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #8
dmitriid wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just read "the Book of the New Sun" in its entirety and I can't understand the appeal people find in it. The author really enjoys telling stories, and is very bad at telling a story. The world is glorious, and he does nothing with it. The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist who goes on long monologues about women as nothing more than objects (and many more monologues that are rarely insightful). The pr…

Wolfe's treatment of women is controversial. However, Severian is about 18 years old, and he grew up in a male-only community, so his perennial interest in women and shagging them is not unbelievable in this protagonist. As for "events of no consequence", there are no such things in the book. Everything is somehow tied together, which is a large part of the book's appeal.

> As for "events of no consequence", there are no such things in the book. Everything is somehow tied together

By consequence I mean change and growth in characters. You can throw away every single story, detour, and encounter and nothing will change in the characters’ journey.

Is there a difference between Jonas and the namless boy dead in the mountains? Dorcas and Balanders? Vodalus and witches in the forgotten ruins? None. They come and go with no impact.

Nowhere is this more evident than in the way the books end and continue. Entire parts of the protagonist’s journey are just skipped from one book to the next. Does it have any effect? None.

Re: Ends of the Urth

#19

Post by dmitriid »

autarch wrote: post #12
dmitriid wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just read "the Book of the New Sun" in its entirety and I can't understand the appeal people find in it. The author really enjoys telling stories, and is very bad at telling a story. The world is glorious, and he does nothing with it. The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist who goes on long monologues about women as nothing more than objects (and many more monologues that are rarely insightful). The pr…

"The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist ..." Yes, Severian is not a particularly good person, but does that make this a bad series of books? I don't think Wolfe is trying to present him as good, which would be hard to swallow. This is written entirely from Severian's viewpoint, not Wolfe's. In the sequel-ish series, the Long Sun books, the protagonist _is_ a very good person, and he's a marked contras…

> I don't think Wolfe is trying to present him as good, which would be hard to swallow. This is written entirely from Severian's viewpoint, not Wolfe's.

And yet we’re made to swallow the fact that he’s an exceptionally good person, an amazing leader whome people follow with no afterthought, and the Chosen One who brings the era of the New Sun.

Re: Ends of the Urth

#20

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

dmitriid wrote: post #19
autarch wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The protagonist is a nymphomaniac borderline[1] rapist ..." Yes, Severian is not a particularly good person, but does that make this a bad series of books? I don't think Wolfe is trying to present him as good, which would be hard to swallow. This is written entirely from Severian's viewpoint, not Wolfe's. In the sequel-ish series, the Long Sun books, the protagonist _is_ a very good person, and he's a marked contras…

> I don't think Wolfe is trying to present him as good, which would be hard to swallow. This is written entirely from Severian's viewpoint, not Wolfe's. And yet we’re made to swallow the fact that he’s an exceptionally good person, an amazing leader whome people follow with no afterthought, and the Chosen One who brings the era of the New Sun.

> And yet we’re made to swallow the fact that he’s an exceptionally good person

Are we? Wolfe has stated in interviews that Severian is not supposed to be seen as a good person, but rather a deeply flawed one.

> an amazing leader whome people follow with no afterthought

Severian only starts to draw a following once he becomes autarch, and then people aren’t following him as much as the office (or the effects of the office). Elsewhere, it is Severian who tags along with various people he meets.

> the Chosen One who brings the era of the New Sun.

Did you go on to read The Urth of the New Sun? I won’t spoil it here for others, but that book does reveal that Severian’s “chosenness” and “saving of the planet” isn’t ultimately all it was cracked up to be.

As for lack of character growth, it is strange that you list Dorcas an example, because IMHO her gradual development over books 1–3 (with the coda in book 4) is a poignant aspect of the work.

And incidentally, novels where a protagonist tours a world full of odd characters, and the author does not particularly develop these characters or even the protagonist, is a well-established literary genre that goes back many centuries (the picaresque).

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