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Report on forced organ harvesting in China

chinatribunal.com

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Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#181

Post by hereiskkb »

QuickToBan wrote: post #149
hereiskkb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opt-out system fixes the forced extraction of organs from dissidents and prisoners? Please, do explain how?

An opt-out system means that anyone (not limited to Falun Gong and other cults) who is already dead will potentially have their organs harvested except if they registered in a national opt-out registry while they were alive. Organs will then be in such abundance that no one will have to be killed for them as they are now. This will be at no cost to the living. It requires a cultural shift.

It's unlikely that the supply-demand ratio of organs will be balanced anytime soon, or if ever we will have greater supply than demand. An organ donation registry works only if there is governmental support for maintaining and respecting the wishes of those that sign-up in the registry, whether opting out or opting in. In China's case, the government has time and again shown disregard for the rights and wishes of dissidents and those that the party classifies as threat. And as such, there is slim hope of any respect shown towards their wishes and decisions. So, I am not really sure such a system will solve anything. At least till the time the Government stance remains as it is today.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#182

Post by HeWhoLurksLate »

throwaway2019B wrote: post #156
rdl wrote: post #35

There is something brilliant about using a group of people who intentionally keep their organs in the best possible condition (Falun Gong does exercise, avoids alcohol, smoking, and some foods, etc.) as your oppressed-minority-live-organ-banks. OTOH, I think the only reason they were hated was due to being popular and somehow offending or scaring someone in power. They were tolerated or even supported for a long time…

It's incredible the mysticism that outsiders assign to Falun Gong. If Falun Gong were in the West, you'd look at them the same way you look at Scientologists and anti-vaxxers. The entire premise behind Falun Gong is that it cleanses your body of diseases such that you won't need medication. So you had people literally dying from abandoning their medication in favor of Falun Gong exercises while the leader collected f…

There is a fundamental difference between anti-vaxxers and the Falun Dafa (Falun Gong is the same thing, I'm referring to it as Falun Dafa because that't their preferred name). The Falun Dafa take active steps to avoid needing Western medicine (you aren't as likely to go into depression if you exercise and do stuff every day, and thus not need anti-depressants) whilst most anti-vaxxers are only united in not giving their children Western medicine. It's one thing to say "I don't like that option, so I won't take it", and another to say "I don't like that option, so I'll do something else".

Do I agree with all of Falun Dafa's beliefs? No, I do not.

Should they be chopped up and their organs harvested? NO.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#183

Post by youareostriches »

dang wrote: post #142
youareostriches wrote: post #36

Shamefully, my HN account was shadowbanned for posting ethical objections to chinese nationalism on the basis of these atrocities committed by the government merely several months ago.

I call this class of comment the "linkless martyr". People make grand, self-flattering claims about why they were supposedly banned. Strangely, what they never do is supply links so readers can make up their own minds. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that we don't ban accounts for "posting ethical objections"?

That’s a rather passive aggressive way to ask for a link, isn’t it?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19507288

Oh and what do you know, now that comment appears to have been flagged, too!

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20249650

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#185

Post by Noumenon72 »

MrAlex94 wrote: post #14
Noumenon72 wrote: post #2

If you're going to potentially violate human rights and set up incentives to murder people for profit, saving lives like this is the best reason to do it. The long waiting lists for organs in the US show that our choice is a tradeoff, not a best practice. Insofar as our system is caused by squeamishness and the desire to feel morally pure, it is harming people unnecessarily too.

> it. The long waiting lists for organs in the US show that our choice is a tradeoff, not a best practice. Insofar as our system is caused by squeamishness and the desire to feel morally pure, it is harming people unnecessarily too. Apologies if I am misunderstanding, but are you insinuating that forced harvesting of organs is “best practice”?

Nope, neither is an unambiguous, strictly better practice. From the Chinese side I would be writing "The scandals where officials have given the death penalty just so they can get the organs show that our choice is a tradeoff, not a best practice. Insofar as our system gives incentives to harvest organs instead of keeping people alive, it is harming people unnecessarily too."

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#186

Post by Noumenon72 »

fsloth wrote: post #17
Noumenon72 wrote: post #2

If you're going to potentially violate human rights and set up incentives to murder people for profit, saving lives like this is the best reason to do it. The long waiting lists for organs in the US show that our choice is a tradeoff, not a best practice. Insofar as our system is caused by squeamishness and the desire to feel morally pure, it is harming people unnecessarily too.

A life saved is not sufficient to counter a murder.

I agree, even if it's five lives saved per murder there's probably a better way. (Voluntary suicides come to mind.) In my view the article did not make the case that "people are being killed _for_ their organs," but "people are being killed _and_ they're taking their organs." The first policy is unambiguously bad while the second is efficient in some ways and dangerous in others.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#187

Post by echaozh »

The page itself and both of the "short form"/"summary" reports downloadable are vacant claims and introduction of the organization and of Falun Gong.

After years of propaganda, I don't believe there still are so many Falun Gong followers in Mainland, let alone to have their organs harvested. Yes, most of us Chinese Mainlanders are fucking Atheists. And even if most of us more or less believe in karma and reincarnation and other forms of buddaism, Falun Gong is vastly different, especially as I know it, it's not compatible with going to buddist temples.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#188

Post by echaozh »

echaozh wrote: post #187

The page itself and both of the "short form"/"summary" reports downloadable are vacant claims and introduction of the organization and of Falun Gong. After years of propaganda, I don't believe there still are so many Falun Gong followers in Mainland, let alone to have their organs harvested. Yes, most of us Chinese Mainlanders are fucking Atheists. And even if most of us more or less believe in karma and reincarnatio…

Basically, if your search Google for 法轮大法/Falun Dafa and 寺庙/buddist temple, you will see entries posted and reposted with title "寺庙修行半辈子，不如念念法轮大法好"[1][2]/"Reading Falun Dafa for a while is better than practicing buddism in a temple for half of your life". I don't think it's fair or honest to make such claims to convert buddists. And I think it may lead to backfire from the buddist religious circle.

[1]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c... [2]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#189

Post by QuickToBan »

hereiskkb wrote: post #181
QuickToBan wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An opt-out system means that anyone (not limited to Falun Gong and other cults) who is already dead will potentially have their organs harvested except if they registered in a national opt-out registry while they were alive. Organs will then be in such abundance that no one will have to be killed for them as they are now. This will be at no cost to the living. It requires a cultural shift.

It's unlikely that the supply-demand ratio of organs will be balanced anytime soon, or if ever we will have greater supply than demand. An organ donation registry works only if there is governmental support for maintaining and respecting the wishes of those that sign-up in the registry, whether opting out or opting in. In China's case, the government has time and again shown disregard for the rights and wishes of dis…

The problems of insufficient donors and that of oppression by the government are different problems. An opt-out registry solves the problem of insufficient donors. As for the government, it will find other ways to oppress people so long as the people don't carry weapons to defend themselves.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#190

Post by reitanqild »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #109
scarmig wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, China is worse. It harvests tens of thousands of organs from political prisoners. It holds hundreds of thousands of minorities in concentration camps in Xinjiang. And that barely scratches the surface. The KSA needs to face severe repercussions too, but repression, censorship, and extralegal assassinations are all in a day's work for the PRC.

> It harvests tens of thousands of organs from political prisoners. Is this actually proven? > It holds hundreds of thousands of minorities in concentration camps in Xinjiang. KSA outright levels cities with minorities in them, so am not sure how they're better. > repression, censorship, and extralegal assassinations are all in a day's work for the PRC As far as I know, China does not repress women anywhere near the…

>> It harvests tens of thousands of organs from political prisoners.

> Is this actually proven?

Sadly yes.

At least it is proven behind all reasonable doubt that they are killing prisoners for organs (proven by the simple fact that there seemed to be an endless supply of matching organs with next to no waiting).

There's also eye witness testimony from at least one doctor as well as recordings where transplantation clinics go far in describing how they use the finest organs from people who have lived a very healthy life - and if I remember correctly - actually sometimes going as far as saying falun gong.

As scarmig I'm a little less convinced by the eyewitness testimony (hiring a few actors would be an excellent way to hurt your enemies && people might have other reasons for portraying the place they left behind as evil) but still, all taken together my guess is that is not what is happening here.

Especially considering they were running a transplant industry that was big enough to cover rich western people as well.

If you run the numbers it becomes very clear that something odd was/is(?) going on, and it is something that - for what I know - might easily compete with a number of genocides for a place on the top 20 most evil things that have happened the last 100 years.

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