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Report on forced organ harvesting in China

chinatribunal.com

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Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#151

Post by AsyncAwait »

randomGen99 wrote: post #136
jdietrich wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has a strong trade and military relationship with KSA, despite their utterly appalling human rights record. It's entirely legitimate to say "If this is really about human rights, why are you selling hundreds of billions of dollars of weapons to an authoritarian regime?". That isn't whataboutism, it's a fundamental critique of the motivations of foreign policy decisions. Analogy: Joe and Paul are gangsters with…

To your analogy, yes, police is fighting crime because getting Paul in jail would reduce rate by 50%. And after that, they can focus on Joe. It’s not nothing or everything (false dilemma/perfect solution fallacy).

Except, they're not only not going after Joe, they're actively hosting him. That's a crucial difference.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#153

Post by FartyMcFarter »

portobello wrote: post #150
FartyMcFarter wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about the BBC, is that good enough? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-china-45474277/uigh...

I don't see anything about this topic at that link.

Tap the image to hear the account of a Chinese surgeon who was involved in organ harvesting.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#154

Post by sam_lowry_ »

monkeyodeath wrote: post #123
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #99

«hundreds of Chinese scientific papers might be compromised due to their reliance upon thousands of unethically sourced organs.» This is like saying that theses people died or were killed, and now some dumbsters will take away even the slightest hope that their death was somehow useful for the rest of us. If I were dying in a concentration camp from the experiments of Doctor Mengele, knowing that my death would contr…

You should go find a Holocaust survivor and check. I'm sure many of them take comfort in the fact that destruction of their lives contributed to the progress of science.

What can a Holocaust survivor tell us about the horrors of Nazism in 2019? They were likely toddlers at the time of Holocaust.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#155

Post by kyboren »

jdietrich wrote: post #103
ilikehurdles wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is pretty typical of how the Chinese are told about their own government’s abuses in schools and media: “but what about the other guy?!”. It’s just not a valid argument. It serves only to change the topic and justify nationalism.

The US has a strong trade and military relationship with KSA, despite their utterly appalling human rights record. It's entirely legitimate to say "If this is really about human rights, why are you selling hundreds of billions of dollars of weapons to an authoritarian regime?". That isn't whataboutism, it's a fundamental critique of the motivations of foreign policy decisions. Analogy: Joe and Paul are gangsters with…

It is possible for a person to believe that both Joe and Paul, broadly speaking, do nasty things.

On one hand, they have dealt with Joe for a long time and, while the relationship is far from perfect, they and Joe have a sort of understanding and Joe takes their opinions into account, in part with all the opinions of other stakeholders, when they're very insistent about it.

On the other hand, Paul in recent memory has committed truly unspeakable atrocities against masses of even his nominal stakeholders--and this hypothetical person may not even have the 'favor' of being one. Paul is obviously much more hostile to his stakeholders (Great Leap Forward, June 4/Tiananmen, Xinjiang concentration camps, Falun Gong genocide, ubiquitous hyper surveillance, etc. etc.). Paul has recently become much more rich and powerful, and has started asserting that power in ways that would totally violate the understanding between our person and Joe. At the same time, Paul has been asserting his power in other person-gangster relationships, dictating terms and helping those gangsters better oppress their own stakeholders.

Are you even the tiniest bit skeptical about whether our person's interests best lie in a maximally adversarial relationship with Paul vs. with Joe? Our person may very much want a better relationship with Joe. If they see Paul as a bigger threat, though, then it makes perfect sense to focus on confronting Paul.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#156

Post by throwaway2019B »

rdl wrote: post #35

There is something brilliant about using a group of people who intentionally keep their organs in the best possible condition (Falun Gong does exercise, avoids alcohol, smoking, and some foods, etc.) as your oppressed-minority-live-organ-banks. OTOH, I think the only reason they were hated was due to being popular and somehow offending or scaring someone in power. They were tolerated or even supported for a long time…

It's incredible the mysticism that outsiders assign to Falun Gong. If Falun Gong were in the West, you'd look at them the same way you look at Scientologists and anti-vaxxers. The entire premise behind Falun Gong is that it cleanses your body of diseases such that you won't need medication.

So you had people literally dying from abandoning their medication in favor of Falun Gong exercises while the leader collected fees from giving seminars/selling books on his system.

Remove the context of this taking place in the evil country that is China, and all you have left is just another cult leader selling snake oil.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#157

Post by AsyncAwait »

refurb wrote: post #144
AsyncAwait wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is a two sided coin Tangibly, sure, but not really. Iran followed the nuclear agreement, the U.S. violated it and has been openly escalating ever since. This does not mean Iran is an angel, but it does mean the U.S. is the aggressor here.

Iran’s support of terrorism throughout the Middle East makes your comment - “does not mean Iran is an angel” - a major understatement.

Except that "Iran’s support of terrorism throughout the Middle East" is a pretty vague statement that does nothing to answer the question of the U.S. not upholding its side of a deal Iran was following as certified by international bodies multiple times, it does nothing to answer for U.S. support for regimes that support terrorists, itself shipping weapons to extremists, it does not justify needless provocation and escalation towards war, nor sanctions that kill ordinary Iranians, prevent medical supplies from entering the country etc., (which is also the impact on Venezuela for example, not just Iran).

As an European, China, Iran etc. do not hold the moral high ground in world affairs in my opinion, but that's kind of expected, few think they do. What seems to be the case is that somehow the U.S. thinks it still holds that ground, where I find it not to be true not only internationally, but increasingly domestically too.

And because U.S. citizens have the most power over their own government, I think holding it to account should be of the highest priority when voting.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#158

Post by luckylion »

jtdev wrote: post #147
ilikehurdles wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The minority of voters voted for Trump. Statistically you’re even less likely today to find his supporters. I’m more than happy to criticize my own country, its actions, its leaders, and the people that enable them. In case you haven’t noticed a lot of Americans don’t hold their government in high regard. Feel free to keep shining the light on those abuses, we need to remember them and learn from them. Now, what abou…

The thing that most commenters here in tacit support of China fail to take into account is that China and the US are global superpowers (unlike the litany of baddies that have been mentioned here)... The US taking a hard line on China can have a cascading affect. The US can’t boil the ocean in regard to fixing all of the worlds ills, and we’re by no means perfect. China is simply the best hill to stand our ground on…

> The US can’t boil the ocean in regard to fixing all of the worlds ills, and we’re by no means perfect. China is simply the best hill to stand our ground on at the moment.

That sounds suspiciously like "changing myself is hard, so I'll try to force my neighbor to change instead".

China would certainly be a high-impact change on the global human rights situation (so would the US be), but on the other hand the probability of change seems somewhat low (especially because you are right: they are close enough to the US in strength that they can't be bullied around that easily). Moonshots are nice and certainly valid as side bets, but not as the primary strategy. Let's work on Turkey and the Saudis, they are "allies", somewhat dependent on Western support (Saudis) and money (Turkey) and nudging them into the right direction can make a huge difference. Reward them generously if they do, and you may see it spread. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

It would have the nice side-effect that we'd clean up our back yard a bit, too. Credibility does matter on these things where people will question your motives.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#159

Post by ghostDancer »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #133
ghostDancer wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not from the USA, so I can't vote, but IMHO if the candidate truly cares about human rights will condemn equally and publicly the crimes in China, Saudi Arabia or any other country , if it only talks about the Chinese or Iranian one, just when there's a big manipulation campaign against those countries I know that candidate is a liar and is scamming the voters who fall for it. Also it's the same card some US peop…

Many of us want candidates to go after Saudi Arabia, but what does that have to do with China?

Candidates only talking about one means that they don't mind about human rights, that they are only doing these for , economical reasons, someone wants to wage a economical war with China that will cost USA lots of money, but some companies will get huge amounts of money and power, so first you declare them the evilest country in the world and then continue.

They did it with Afghanistan , later with Iraq.

OTOH the are silent about other places like SA or many other dictatorships in the world. Hypocrisy and blatant lies about human rights. And yes, the Chinese government is really fucked up. No one can deny that.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#160

Post by dang »

hydrox24 wrote: post #29

The report this is referencing is available here[0] The tribunal was setup, for what it is worth, by a campaign group called: "International Coalition to End Transplant Abuse in China"[1] [0]: https://chinatribunal.com/final-judgement-report/ [1]: https://endtransplantabuse.org/

We changed the URL to that from https://www.sciencealert.com/our-worst-fears-about-where-chi....
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