Report on forced organ harvesting in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#141

Post by charles_f » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:14 PM UTC

devoply wrote: post #32

jdietrich wrote: post #15

This is a textbook thought experiment in utilitarianism, carried to its logical conclusion. Kill one person, save eight. We might not like it, we might consider it abhorrent, it might contravene international human rights law, but we can't argue that it's senseless.

It's not really utilitarianism at all. There is nothing in utilitarianism that says round up some undesirable group and kill them so a few wealthy people might get organs so they can live. The greatest good for the greatest number of people. What is the consequence of these actions, well first murder. That leads to no happiness for the murdered, their families and loved ones. The people receiving the results of that…

But the assumption you're making is that they're being killed in order to be harvested. While this is certainly a perverse incentive that such a collection system is creating, I don't find where the article mentions that organ harvesting is the reason for their collection, but mention their execution for dissidence and ethnicity.

If those victims were to die anyway, it does become somewhat of an utilitarian problem.

And if it is, the gaming issue that would bias decisions towards executing the prisoners instead of "lighter" sentences due to the "gains", which creates a vicious feedback loop ; and the fact that overall the gains in that system are not just people surviving, but also captors getting rich ; should point clearly to the vice and undefiable corruption that make it undeniably unethical.

That and the fact that a regular human with any ounce of love or humanity in its blood should feel how wrong and disgusting this all is

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#142

Post by dang » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:21 PM UTC

youareostriches wrote: post #36

Shamefully, my HN account was shadowbanned for posting ethical objections to chinese nationalism on the basis of these atrocities committed by the government merely several months ago.

I call this class of comment the "linkless martyr".

People make grand, self-flattering claims about why they were supposedly banned. Strangely, what they never do is supply links so readers can make up their own minds. Why do you suppose that is? Could it be that we don't ban accounts for "posting ethical objections"?

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#143

Post by carapace » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

HeWhoLurksLate wrote: post #3

While stopping short of concluding that the killing and forced organ removal of these peoples constitutes genocide in its legal definition (due to a lack of proof of actual intent to commit genocide), the panel nonetheless condemned the forced organ removals as a crime against humanity and an act of "unmatched wickedness". This article made me shiver. How did China get away with this for so long?

> How did China get away with this for so long?

Skepticism and complacency.

Also, they're still getting away with it.

This was formally condemned by Congress three years ago. Falun Gong do demonstrations at the Whole Foods store down the street.

Most people aren't monsters. (I would imagine that even most of the organ recipients don't connect the dots and don't know where their new organ came from. The medical staff that know what they're doing are another story, it's dismal that so many psychotic monsters could be found or made.)

Something as horrifying as this causes cognitive dissonance and, in order to return to a lower energy state, the mind rejects it. At least until there is enough incontrovertible proof.

It also doesn't help that any sane and healthy response to this maddening, sickening, horrifying crime must be massive, total, and sustained.

Massive because the evil is massive; total because there can be no compromise with this evil; and sustained because the temptation will remain until we have solved human tissue regeneration.

If you're a US citizen and you care about this please contact your representatives and let them know.

Don't be shy about bringing this up.

> The United States House of Representatives unanimously passed an unprecedented resolution Monday [3 years ago], condemning forced organ removal from Falun Gong practitioners and other prisoners of conscience in China. House Resolution 343 (full text) was co-sponsored by 185 Democrat and Republican members. Among other actions, it demands that the Chinese government immediately end the practice of forced organ removal and stop the persecution of Falun Gong, and calls on the U.S. State Department to provide more detailed analysis of the topic in its annual human rights report.

https://faluninfo.net/u-s-congress-condemns-forced-organ-har...

It's going to be hellish getting them to stop formally, let alone the black market. Niven called it:

> Organlegging is the name of a fictional crime in the Known Space universe created by Larry Niven. It is the illicit trade of black market human organs for transplant. The term organlegging is a portmanteau combining the words "organ" and "bootlegging", literally the piracy[1][2] and smuggling of organs.[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organlegging

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#144

Post by refurb » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:23 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #94

sonnyblarney wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"U.S. abuses and provocations, (Iran?)," - this is a two sided coin.

> this is a two sided coin Tangibly, sure, but not really. Iran followed the nuclear agreement, the U.S. violated it and has been openly escalating ever since. This does not mean Iran is an angel, but it does mean the U.S. is the aggressor here.

Iran’s support of terrorism throughout the Middle East makes your comment - “does not mean Iran is an angel” - a major understatement.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#145

Post by randomGen99 » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:25 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #109

scarmig wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, China is worse. It harvests tens of thousands of organs from political prisoners. It holds hundreds of thousands of minorities in concentration camps in Xinjiang. And that barely scratches the surface. The KSA needs to face severe repercussions too, but repression, censorship, and extralegal assassinations are all in a day's work for the PRC.

> It harvests tens of thousands of organs from political prisoners. Is this actually proven? > It holds hundreds of thousands of minorities in concentration camps in Xinjiang. KSA outright levels cities with minorities in them, so am not sure how they're better. > repression, censorship, and extralegal assassinations are all in a day's work for the PRC As far as I know, China does not repress women anywhere near the…

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Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#146

Post by QuickToBan » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #137

QuickToBan wrote: post #84

It's simply the absence of an opt-out system that leads to either organ shortages or forced donations. An opt-out system fixes all of this immediately.

Many Chinese are actually against organ donation culturally, China would be one of the last places an opt out would be introduced.

And therein lies the problem. It needs cultural change, perhaps forcibly, and it really has no cost to anyone alive. At least then people won't ever be killed to extract their organs.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#147

Post by jtdev » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

ilikehurdles wrote: post #95

AsyncAwait wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want OP to be aware that if he wants to vote for somebody like Trump for i.e. his 'stance' on China, it's worth noting that the U.S. doesn't really care, it's just posturing, this is not to say I like what China does here, if they're indeed doing it. It's possible to hold both of these positions i.e. being against the Iraq war and not believing that the U.S. really believes in the propaganda they're putting ou…

The minority of voters voted for Trump. Statistically you’re even less likely today to find his supporters. I’m more than happy to criticize my own country, its actions, its leaders, and the people that enable them. In case you haven’t noticed a lot of Americans don’t hold their government in high regard. Feel free to keep shining the light on those abuses, we need to remember them and learn from them. Now, what abou…

The thing that most commenters here in tacit support of China fail to take into account is that China and the US are global superpowers (unlike the litany of baddies that have been mentioned here)... The US taking a hard line on China can have a cascading affect. The US can’t boil the ocean in regard to fixing all of the worlds ills, and we’re by no means perfect. China is simply the best hill to stand our ground on at the moment.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#148

Post by bayesian_horse » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #122

bayesian_horse wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They admitted to having used organs from prisoners with relatively "valid" death sentence in so far that there is any such thing as a fair trial in China. What is alleged here is much worse: Prisoners of Conscience (and not drug traffickers or murderers) are particularly selected for their histocompatibility and executed "on demand". Therefor I think these allegations need further proof. Extraordinary claims require…

Doesn’t one lead to the other? I mean, that is why organ harvesting of condemned prisoners is so distasteful in the first place: it creates a huge conflict of interest in the dispensing of justice.

Not necessarily. For one thing it depends on consent. There is nothing wrong with a condemned person to consent to organ donation, if there is meaningful consent to be had.

One would think that even China has some compunctions about "creating" capital crimes in order to have enough organ donors. One of the problems with the underlying story is that the non-consenting donors must have been killed somewhat "extrajudiciarily", that is, outside of the "normal" way death sentences have been administered in China.

Therefore the allegations point to an industrial scale process of matching living prisoners to organ recipients, and lacking a judicial death sentence.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#149

Post by QuickToBan » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:29 PM UTC

hereiskkb wrote: post #98

QuickToBan wrote: post #84

It's simply the absence of an opt-out system that leads to either organ shortages or forced donations. An opt-out system fixes all of this immediately.

Opt-out system fixes the forced extraction of organs from dissidents and prisoners? Please, do explain how?

An opt-out system means that anyone (not limited to Falun Gong and other cults) who is already dead will potentially have their organs harvested except if they registered in a national opt-out registry while they were alive. Organs will then be in such abundance that no one will have to be killed for them as they are now. This will be at no cost to the living. It requires a cultural shift.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#150

Post by portobello » Sat, Jun 22, 2019, 3:32 PM UTC

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #68

throwaway619 wrote: post #51

This is a controversial subject. It is important to get information from sources that have rigorous fact-checking and a reputation to defend.

How about the BBC, is that good enough? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-asia-china-45474277/uigh...

I don't see anything about this topic at that link.