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Report on forced organ harvesting in China

chinatribunal.com

131–140 of 199 posts

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#131
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. If anything their bodies should be protected from any kind of harvesting as to not incentivize the state from handing out death penalties.

I believe the death penalty should be abolished anyway. But, disregarding the complexity of the implementation of such a policy, if the government is in the business of ending people's lives, I'd rather it be done to directly help people, instead of in a punitive fashion. If you think about it, the death penalty isn't really a punishment - some people commit heinous crimes specifically so they can be killed .

"Suicide by Justice" doesn't seem like it would be or is a popular enough form of suicide to warrant what you're suggesting. Your logic doesn't make much sense.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'd imagine you'd ignore U.S. abuses and provocations, (Iran?), I imagine? Is China worse than Saudi Arabia for example? Because I can't imagine U.S. speaking strongly against KSA, can you? The U.S. doesn't really care about human rights, or its own abuse of them, (was any top official prosecuted for Iraq?), so you'd be voting for posturing.

See, this is pretty typical of how the Chinese are told about their own government’s abuses in schools and media: “but what about the other guy?!”. It’s just not a valid argument. It serves only to change the topic and justify nationalism.

> It’s just not a valid argument.

It's not a valid argument for the Chinese to justify their practices, you are right in that.

It is a valid argument for critics that are (collectively) guilty of similar abuses, however. In this case: why make China's abuses the issue of your vote instead of your government's abuses? The US government has limited power over the Chinese (and so your vote has even less), but it has full power over itself. Pledging your vote to somebody that will not create new wars sounds more reasonable to me than pledging your vote to someone that promises to be "tough on China". The horrors in Libya that the Obama administration is responsible for are arguably worse than China's human rights abuses in their Gulag system.

First take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye and all that.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is pretty typical of how the Chinese are told about their own government’s abuses in schools and media: “but what about the other guy?!”. It’s just not a valid argument. It serves only to change the topic and justify nationalism.

I'm not from the USA, so I can't vote, but IMHO if the candidate truly cares about human rights will condemn equally and publicly the crimes in China, Saudi Arabia or any other country , if it only talks about the Chinese or Iranian one, just when there's a big manipulation campaign against those countries I know that candidate is a liar and is scamming the voters who fall for it. Also it's the same card some US peop…

Many of us want candidates to go after Saudi Arabia, but what does that have to do with China?

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#134
post #32

This is a textbook thought experiment in utilitarianism, carried to its logical conclusion. Kill one person, save eight. We might not like it, we might consider it abhorrent, it might contravene international human rights law, but we can't argue that it's senseless.

It's not really utilitarianism at all. There is nothing in utilitarianism that says round up some undesirable group and kill them so a few wealthy people might get organs so they can live. The greatest good for the greatest number of people. What is the consequence of these actions, well first murder. That leads to no happiness for the murdered, their families and loved ones. The people receiving the results of that…

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Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#135
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're leaving out is that the one person being killed is not picked randomly from the citizen pool, they are all persecuted minorities. So, a more accurate statement would be that China is murdering one person from a group the communist party doesn't like to save eight from the ethnic group that constitutes the overwhelming majority of the ruling class. That is not utilitarianism, it's just tribalism and xenoph…

Is it completely implausible to believe that people from "a group the communist party doesn't like" are simply less useful to Chinese society than a randomly selected citizen? I'm not trying to defend China here, but it's futile to condemn an action if you have not made a good-faith effort to understand the rationale. China is a collectivist society - the rights of the individual are always secondary to the rights of…

> but it's futile to condemn an action if you have not made a good-faith effort to understand the rationale. China is a collectivist society - the rights of the individual are always secondary to the rights of the whole.

While your argument is presented within a logical/philosophical framework, it can only be made in a hypothesized world. The fallacy is that the "whole" is hardly ever considered. Within Communist system's, the "greater good" is sold as a cake: appealing but no substance.

I would bet that the organs are going to the top 1% of the rich, wealthy, and influential Chinese. I have no proof of this but being born in former USSR and still having connection to that part of the world, I can attest that majority almost never benefit.

> If you want to make a persuasive argument, you need to address that core ideological difference. Why is your right to freedom of religion more valuable than our collective right to freedom from religious conflict? Why is your right to free speech more valuable than our collective right to social cohesion and stable governance? Why is your right to life more valuable than the right to life of the eight people who your organs could save?

This is really tricky statement to make because on the philosophical stage, you are right. You have valid points and in theory, utilitarianism is more good than bad. However, in reality, its very difficult to discount human nature. It's simply too easy to become corrupt. In my opinion, such philosophical arguments are the road to hell, paved with good intention.

On the other hand, if we could build a perfect world, where everyone was altruistic, it would be best. Reconciling such a world with known human traits and action is a different beast all together.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is pretty typical of how the Chinese are told about their own government’s abuses in schools and media: “but what about the other guy?!”. It’s just not a valid argument. It serves only to change the topic and justify nationalism.

The US has a strong trade and military relationship with KSA, despite their utterly appalling human rights record. It's entirely legitimate to say "If this is really about human rights, why are you selling hundreds of billions of dollars of weapons to an authoritarian regime?". That isn't whataboutism, it's a fundamental critique of the motivations of foreign policy decisions. Analogy: Joe and Paul are gangsters with…

To your analogy, yes, police is fighting crime because getting Paul in jail would reduce rate by 50%. And after that, they can focus on Joe. It’s not nothing or everything (false dilemma/perfect solution fallacy).

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#137

It's simply the absence of an opt-out system that leads to either organ shortages or forced donations. An opt-out system fixes all of this immediately.

Many Chinese are actually against organ donation culturally, China would be one of the last places an opt out would be introduced.

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has this got to do with 1984? I don't remember anything about forced organ transplants in there.

Honestly it takes 1984 a step further. We can’t say because they are harvesting organs it doesn’t have the same themes as 1984. This is terrifying.

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Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, this is pretty typical of how the Chinese are told about their own government’s abuses in schools and media: “but what about the other guy?!”. It’s just not a valid argument. It serves only to change the topic and justify nationalism.

The US has a strong trade and military relationship with KSA, despite their utterly appalling human rights record. It's entirely legitimate to say "If this is really about human rights, why are you selling hundreds of billions of dollars of weapons to an authoritarian regime?". That isn't whataboutism, it's a fundamental critique of the motivations of foreign policy decisions. Analogy: Joe and Paul are gangsters with…

As the saying goes, punish one educate hundreds. You can Paul first and then go after Joe later if he does not improve.

This is not fair, but politics is not primarily about fairness. It’s about reaching you goals (here: establish human rights world wide).

Re: Report on forced organ harvesting in China

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Wikipedia objects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation

Huh? Mengele was playing at sadism, nothing more. Injecting dyes into twin's eyes to see if he could create Aryan eye colour, shooting and autopsying a still warm inmate to win a bet of whose diagnosis was correct, connecting up twins to try and make them conjoined. His medical defence was specifically denied as he did nothing to contribute to the Nazi war effort. He did none of the valid, but unethical, Nazi researc…

I have to agree, my reference to Mengele was rather metaphorical.
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