Plain and simple: Net neutrality is hypocrisy • Hacker News Board

Re: Plain and simple: Net neutrality is hypocrisy

#21

Post by _stephan » Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 2:54 PM UTC

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #15

_stephan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you take away the governmental protections that allow them to have a monopoly and let the market consume them when they refuse to change their shitty business practices. How is that supposed to work? Have you ever heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_monopoly

no examples exist. the wikipedia example is terrible. epidemics were caused by something that had never existed up until that point? (water network) and because profit margins were too low? so you're going to tell me that a lack of running water caused widespread DEATH AND PESTILENCE and people still were going "nah, I think I'll wait for those water bills to drop some more"?

My point was that in certain markets unregulated competition will naturally lead to a monopoly. The technical term for this in microeconomics is "natural monopoly", and the explanation at the beginning of the Wikipedia article is actually pretty good. Without regulation monopolists can prevent the market entry of competitors and can extract excessive profits from consumers, to the detriment of society as a whole.

Re: Plain and simple: Net neutrality is hypocrisy

#22

Post by stupidsignup » Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 3:03 PM UTC

anonymoushn wrote: post #20

stupidsignup wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is too smart for me (and added a new word to my english vocabulary). Care to elaborate on what you mean?

After most elected Republicans and Democrats voted for EESA in 2008 (against the wishes of their constituents by 100:1 or more) and after Bush's PATRIOT Act and Obama's decision to renew it, it should be apparent that the major political parties are functionally identical and not interested in their voters. Dividing people along party lines distracts from the issues while changing nothing. The issue here is net neutr…

This is like saying just because China and the US act much in the same way (for example, they are the leaders in environment pollution) there is no distinction between people who believe in a communist regime vs. in a democratic government. Of course a distinction between Republicans and Democrats is useful. For example it is a good prediction to say if you have a PhD, you are probably not a Republican.

Re: Plain and simple: Net neutrality is hypocrisy

#23

Post by mudil » Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 5:49 PM UTC

regularfry wrote: post #9

Let me get this straight: nothing is broken right now, and therefore legislation to stop it from being broken in the future is... bad? Is that seriously what he's suggesting?

That's right. Ronald Reagan liked to describe the sequence of actions that government typically takes toward private business:

"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it."

Re: Plain and simple: Net neutrality is hypocrisy

#24

Post by blueben » Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 6:04 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #19

agentultra wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not ad hominem; it's good to know sources, especially with an opinion piece like this.

It certainly is ad hominem. - attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad+hominem It's also hard to see how it is relevant.

It's not attacking his character, but rather his bias. And the funding that supports his opinion is entirely relevant; He is paid to craft arguments in opposition to Network Neutrality.

Re: Plain and simple: Net neutrality is hypocrisy

#25

Post by yummyfajitas » Mon, Dec 20, 2010, 7:10 PM UTC

blueben wrote: post #24

yummyfajitas wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly is ad hominem. - attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ad+hominem It's also hard to see how it is relevant.

It's not attacking his character, but rather his bias. And the funding that supports his opinion is entirely relevant; He is paid to craft arguments in opposition to Network Neutrality.

Accusing him of being biased is attacking his character.

As for his funding source, which of his arguments does that invalidate? Which of his facts is false, as a result of him being funded by Verizon (or whoever)?

(By the way, I don't even agree with him. Just pointing out that ad hominem is a logical fallacy, except under fairly limited circumstances - specifically when facts are presented that the reader cannot verify.)

[Edit: just thought of another circumstance where it isn't a logical fallacy. "You are wrong because of XXX. Also you are stupid." In this case, the argument is unchanged regardless of the attack on character.]

Re: Plain and simple: Net neutrality is hypocrisy

#26

Post by nazgulnarsil » Tue, Dec 21, 2010, 2:29 AM UTC

_stephan wrote: post #21

nazgulnarsil wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no examples exist. the wikipedia example is terrible. epidemics were caused by something that had never existed up until that point? (water network) and because profit margins were too low? so you're going to tell me that a lack of running water caused widespread DEATH AND PESTILENCE and people still were going "nah, I think I'll wait for those water bills to drop some more"?

My point was that in certain markets unregulated competition will naturally lead to a monopoly. The technical term for this in microeconomics is "natural monopoly", and the explanation at the beginning of the Wikipedia article is actually pretty good. Without regulation monopolists can prevent the market entry of competitors and can extract excessive profits from consumers, to the detriment of society as a whole.

again please point to a single example of this happening ever.

Re: Plain and simple: Net neutrality is hypocrisy

#27

Post by bumbledraven » Tue, Dec 21, 2010, 8:29 AM UTC

I like what Stephen Kinsella wrote in response to this article in "Against Net Neutrality" http://networkedblogs.com/c3MxZ):

``It is true that some corporations probably have extra-market power to control aspects of the Internet, as the result of state interventions such as IP, FCC licensing, antitrust law, big business favoritism, and so on. But the solution is not to grant the state even more power to regulate private companies... [N]et neutrality is an attempt by the state to [seize] more power to control private property rights as an ostensible response to various "market failures" that are really themselves caused by state intervention.''

Re: Plain and simple: Net neutrality is hypocrisy

#28

Post by agentultra » Tue, Dec 28, 2010, 5:32 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #25

blueben wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not attacking his character, but rather his bias. And the funding that supports his opinion is entirely relevant; He is paid to craft arguments in opposition to Network Neutrality.

Accusing him of being biased is attacking his character. As for his funding source, which of his arguments does that invalidate? Which of his facts is false, as a result of him being funded by Verizon (or whoever)? (By the way, I don't even agree with him. Just pointing out that ad hominem is a logical fallacy, except under fairly limited circumstances - specifically when facts are presented that the reader cannot ve…

In the context of a proper debate, bias is expected since the opposing view will be supported by your opponent.

In the context of an essay, there is no opponent. The author is responsible for drawing conclusions from evidence which they use to support their thesis.

The corollary is an opinion piece. The author is free to derive evidence which supports their pre-determined conclusion. Such articles are able to be complete fabrications and misleading while lime-lighting in our media as legitimate articles to report. If the reader is not aware of the author's bias they may be mislead in their own conclusions.

Therefore it is not ad hominem to draw into question the bias of an author of an article. Doing so may invalidate any argument they have made which relies on the intended omission of evidence which may counter their argument. Sometimes it is the only way by which a reader can distinguish an opinion piece from a proper essay when the distinction isn't made clear by the publisher of the article.