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Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

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Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#31
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humans have been information starved I'm not sure starved is the right metaphor. When saying we were "information starved" it implies we actually needed more information, like food, when in fact the reason the brain pays so much attention to new stuff is probably because the signal to noise ratio was much higher for millions of years than it is these days.

> When saying we were "information starved" it implies we actually needed more information, like food We arguably did need more, like the locations to find food, when to plant food, how to deal with drought or pests, how to avoid and defend from predators, etc. Information is the key to all of our needs.

Hmm good point.

Which makes me think: will we ever have enough?

Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#32
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean it’s also the only way to actually get food and drugs

What? Hunting? Foraging? Peyote? Mushrooms? Willow bark?

I'm sure the environmental folks would love it if even a small percentage of the human population started doing that on a regular basis instead of relying on agriculture and industry.

Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#33
post #16

I consider my information addiction as one of the top 2 personal problems that are holding me back in my life. The only thing that works for me every once in a while is going cold turkey and blocking off as many websites as I can in my hosts file. I'm surprised there isn't a serious accessible product that helps people manage this addiction, because unlike drugs you can't realistically not use the internet ever again…

How would you decide what to block? Wikipedia or Stack Overflow can be extremely useful but you can waste time there as easily as on Facebook, Twitter or Hacker News.

I didn't say that this product will "block" sites (traditionally speaking).

For example, if you need StackOverflow it can replace it's UI with only a search box and results list, preventing you from clicking related links.

When you go on reddit, it could asks you which subreddit you need and why before letting you in, reinforcing the reason you need to visit the site. I think it can be powerful - requiring active input from the user as to what his intentions are. If you need to write "I'm really bored" as a reason you go on Facebook, I think there's a pretty good chance you'll end up closing it.

I believe there are hidden patterns that you might be able to break when the product helps you see and understand these patterns.

Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#34
post #11

For those who want more snacks and drugs, here's the preprint of the actual article: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/05/17/324665.full...

tl;dr: I think the study's idea of 'baseline' behavior relies on a payout-maximizing model we know is incorrect.

Thanks, I'm well past the point of believing PR office summaries of studies on these topics. And sure enough, it looks to me like this is being oversold and also has some concerning gaps. Anyone want to help me understand that?

Press release: “To the brain, information is its own reward, above and beyond whether it’s useful”

Article: We observed that subjects’ information acquisition behavior was indeed largely driven by instrumental benefit... While we found no evidence for simplistic constant utility bonus, the utility of anticipation improved behavioral modeling.

Which is to say, subjects specifically did not place an inherent value on information independent of its utility. Rather, they adjusted its value based on its utility in a way which did not perfectly maximize payout.

More broadly and importantly, I think this is a worthwhile study, but I'm worried it's propagating a known behavior up through extra layers and calling it a new result. It's well established that people playing games of chance don't behave as perfect payout-maximizers, and specifically that they appear to be loss-averse and ambiguity-averse (e.g. Ellsberg's paradox). They also appear to place nonlinear value on the utility of money, changing their choices when all game outcomes are scaled with the same expected utility (Allais paradox). Given all of that, we can say that a player's desired outcome in such a game is not simply maximizing expected payout. As such, "perfectly rational" behavior at the information-buying step is not the decision which maximizes payout, but the one which maximizes their performance under their chosen utility function.

But the study works from the assumption that "Under standard economic accounts, agents accept the lottery if its EU is higher than the utility of status quo u(0), and reject otherwise (Fig. 2a). Furthermore, they purchase the information if its cost is lower than VOI and forgo if higher". A host of studies show that this is not how people actually play lotteries. As a result, the study concludes that anticipation utility is acting at the information-buying step, while ignoring the possibility of strictly-rational purchasing under an alternate utility function.

This could have been easily tested with a control in which players were asked to play the variable-outcome lotteries with perfect information, to establish baseline play against which to compare information-buying behavior. I'm still interested in the game results and the MRI data, but the press release tells us this result "could only be explained by a model that captured both economic and psychological motives". I'm not ready to accept that when the control is purely theoretical and based on a model we already know doesn't work.

Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you decide what to block? Wikipedia or Stack Overflow can be extremely useful but you can waste time there as easily as on Facebook, Twitter or Hacker News.

Then don't decide what to block based on content. Decide what to block either based upon the users express choice (the tool would empower the user, not dictate a lifestyle to them) or possibly based upon observation of where the user spends the most time. The main problem I see with the concept is that it has a poor intellectual foundation. I'd like to see a better explanation of why learning is so dangerous.

Obviously "learning" in itself is not dangerous, but the amount of time you spend learning instead of things that actually matter to you.

Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#36
“I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skillful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that that little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it there comes a time when for every addition of knowledge you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones.”

- Sherlock Holmes

Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#37
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humans have been information starved I'm not sure starved is the right metaphor. When saying we were "information starved" it implies we actually needed more information, like food, when in fact the reason the brain pays so much attention to new stuff is probably because the signal to noise ratio was much higher for millions of years than it is these days.

> When saying we were "information starved" it implies we actually needed more information, like food We arguably did need more, like the locations to find food, when to plant food, how to deal with drought or pests, how to avoid and defend from predators, etc. Information is the key to all of our needs.

See all the examples of explorers dying in places with ample food because they didn't know how to access it. Scott Alexander recently reviewed a book covering this:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/04/book-review-the-secret...

Information was critical for survival, so it's no surprise we seek it out.

Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#38
Have you ever noticed how some people crave the resolution of simple lack of relevant information?

You can say “Hey, I was goin to tell you... ah nevermind” and they will pester you, “no, tell me!”

I have also found there is also a difference between male and female psychology. Women are much more interested to know the details of something emotionally salient that you’ve indicated you care about. Men let it go and seem to focus more intently on abstract things that may have wide applicability.

Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#39

Is it just me, or is "money" the odd one out here? Snacks and drugs both have direct, obvious 'value' to the body - food is about the simplest evolutionary case imaginable, and a host of animals will get drunk given the chance. And it's easy to make a case for 'information' as something any reinforcement learner will value and seek out, since it's essentially a prerequisite for all other learning and decision-making.…

Canada, the most affluent of countries, operates on a depletion economy which leaves destruction in its wake. Your people are driven by a terrible sense of deficiency. When the last tree is cut, the last fish is caught, and the last river is polluted; when to breathe the air is sickening, you will realize, too late, that wealth is not in bank accounts and that you can’t eat money. - Obomsawin

Re: Information is like snacks, money, and drugs to the brain

#40
post #7

This can easily be channeled into a positive. If you are consuming information that has value I don't see the problem. I binge a little on engineering videos each week that add to my personal and professional life. I love absorbing new information. It is a far cry from going down youtube holes of reality tv highlights, celebrity news, or other modes of cultural decay.

Honestly, sometimes I worry that watching engineering videos online is worse than the vacuous shit that normal people watch. I go through phases, things like aircraft, off grid living, hydropower, welding, CNC, machining, woodworking, electronics, gardening, farming, hydroponics. Few of those are relevant to my day job or even my current living arrangements. But when I get really interested in a subject I'll devour e…

I agree that a lot of these things are terrible as sources of long-term distraction - a vacuous TV show might take my attention while I watch it and a bit after, but the uses of a 3D printer can set me up to nerd-snipe myself for weeks. And even in the short-term, I think they tend to bypass some of my mental 'defenses'; they're pseudo-useful so it doesn't feel like wasted time, and they're below the addictiveness level that triggers my allergy to e.g. freemium games. Addictive games and TV feel like talking to a scam caller, while almost-useful stuff feels like a really good low-pressure salesman.

That said, some of that distraction does actually pay off. (Especially if I can fight the instinct to learn about stuff that needs rarified tools or large-scale projects; I'm not going to build my own airplane no matter how cool it would be.) Being able to graft a tree, tie a fishing lure, or cut a hole with questionable tools are at least usable skills, so if I can to low-tech or relatively commonplace stuff, it's a decent way to channel the urge for distraction into some kind of utility.

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