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Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

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Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#21

Post by zackmorris »

I'm against the agism in the article but the rest of it is sound.

Right now we means test shareholders on the basis of whether they have capital to invest in a company, which is discriminatory in a society like ours where wealth inequality is the highest it's been in the history of the world. If half the country has no upward mobility and an impoverished quality of life that takes everything they got just to survive, then wealth is an inherited trait just like cultural identity.

I think it's time to question the rationality of people who are against UBI. Their failures in big picture thinking and long term planning, whether in basic economic principles like opportunity cost or tragedy of the commons, or in more existential philosophical matters like whether it's ok to subsist on the toil of others, shouldn't take precedence over our self-governance/determination.

What I'm saying is that we're approaching a day when one person owns the entire discretionary spending of each country, and has effectively corrupted government to the point where propaganda informs our beliefs more than ethics. Are we there yet? Maybe not quite. 10 or 20 years away? Perhaps - look who's president.

UBI threatens the status quo (specifically crony and vulture capitalism) more than almost any concept I can think of. So for that reason alone, I'm strongly for it.

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#22

Post by umadon »

tomschlick wrote: post #5

Nobody can ever answer the question of "What happens when someone blows their UBI and cant afford to eat?" Will we let them starve? You'd almost have to from the government side of things. How about 5 years after when someone introduces another entitlement program to help single mothers/seniors/etc and then criticizes everyone else as heartless for not supporting it? Will we just end up where we are now with even mor…

But where does that value come from? Did Bezos create it?

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#24

Post by buboard »

regardless of other arguments for ubi this piece is full of flawed thinking.

> Universal Basic Income means that we can create a universal ownership stake in productivity,

There is already a term for that, it's called communism.

> At any point that they publish evidence that they are leveraging knowledge or information from an individual, be it an employee or a consumer, they owe us a piece

They owe a piece to the government and military that ensure the infrastructure safety and fairness of the economic environment they work in. They pay that (and should pay that) through taxes. It doesn't make sense to say that every time there is an economic transaction both parties should pay back to each other because they somehow "we owe us" . That's just confused logic.

> am interested in raising income, so I can give people more humanity, more dignity, more piece of mind to really uncover what their callings might be, so they can be more effective and more contributive in their communities

What you 're giving them is more money to gamble/spend on drugs/ be just as irresponsible as before. People dont suddenly become productive because you throw them a bone. Welfare is MUCH better at identifying peoples needs and filling the gaps rather than expecting that "they ll just figure it out themselves". UBI is more inhumane than welfare.

> At no point does automation mean that jobs go away,”

I mean, yes it does. by definition, and saying it doesnt doesnt magically fix it

> So, whatever cool comes from that culture, they owe me and people like me

hmm. i stop here. cant read further

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#25

Post by [deleted] »

tomschlick wrote: post #5

Nobody can ever answer the question of "What happens when someone blows their UBI and cant afford to eat?" Will we let them starve? You'd almost have to from the government side of things. How about 5 years after when someone introduces another entitlement program to help single mothers/seniors/etc and then criticizes everyone else as heartless for not supporting it? Will we just end up where we are now with even mor…

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#26

Post by buboard »

insickness wrote: post #13

UBI will never replace welfare. People are not going to agree to cut off current welfare programs. And it will not stay at a $1000. It will go up. Not long after implementation, a politician will soon say that $1000 is not a livable wage and that it needs to be $2000. The next politician will say that it needs to be $5000. Basically this opens the door to socialism where we will just be haggling on the amount of weal…

I use to say, i will price my tomatoes at $100 each. It's not like there is anyone who can't afford them.

UBI is faith based science

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#27

Post by sesteel »

maxxxxx wrote: post #18
sesteel wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think many people view UBI as transformative (as you suggest), though they don't always talk about it in those terms. Increasingly, production and services will be automated leaving fewer and fewer jobs for people. In a far off dystopian future, there will be some Ubercorp that does everything, controls all production and services leaving no paid work for people. UBI is simply a means for smoothing out the transiti…

" Otherwise, the economy will be broken; it already is for some now." If we introduce UBI it would probably be one of the first times in history that society addresses major changes without war, revolution or other upheaval. My prediction is that inequality will grow, a lot of people will lose their jobs, but nothing will change fundamentally without a major conflict. We see that already with climate change. There cl…

I think you are correct. Typically, there needs to be pain before there is action that is human nature. That pain traditionally has come in the form of epidemics, famine, and war.

A large part of climate change denial is driven by economic forces. The oil and transportation industries have built an economy that relies on fossil fuels. As soon as alternatives are cheaper, there will be a transition. We are seeing that in the energy sector now where solar has gotten cheaper than coal. Power companies are starting to make the transition to wind and solar. IMO, the best thing we can do to solve the climate crisis is to make the economics of non-fossil fuel energy sources impossible to compete with OR close the loop on CO and CO2 emissions (converting atmospheric carbon back into fuel).

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#28

Post by viklove »

tomschlick wrote: post #5

Nobody can ever answer the question of "What happens when someone blows their UBI and cant afford to eat?" Will we let them starve? You'd almost have to from the government side of things. How about 5 years after when someone introduces another entitlement program to help single mothers/seniors/etc and then criticizes everyone else as heartless for not supporting it? Will we just end up where we are now with even mor…

> Yeah that says it all right there. This guy feels entitled to someone else's money.

Yeah, and that guy is Bezos (and you, it seems). Where did that $150 billion come from? Are you really suggesting one man created it?

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#29

Post by sesteel »

umadon wrote: post #23

There are some really interesting comments in this thread, but I wonder what people think: Where does value come from?

I might not understand what you are getting at, but all value originates from desire (demand) and scarcity (supply).

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#30

Post by world32 »

basch wrote: post #16
tomschlick wrote: post #5

Nobody can ever answer the question of "What happens when someone blows their UBI and cant afford to eat?" Will we let them starve? You'd almost have to from the government side of things. How about 5 years after when someone introduces another entitlement program to help single mothers/seniors/etc and then criticizes everyone else as heartless for not supporting it? Will we just end up where we are now with even mor…

I've asked this elsewhere recently but here it goes again. Im sure Im wrong, but wouldnt it make sense to start with like "all rice, bean, potatoes, and broccoli consumption at the personal level is free" and start with a food stamp / ebt that buys unlimited of something very specific? It wouldnt be a currency thats worth trading to other people, landlords couldnt collect ebt credits in lieu of rent, because everyone…

Because of the massive cost and buerocracy around maintaining a gradation system of handouts like you describe. By some calculations it can even be cheaper for the gov to go all or nothing than it is to run a system of checks with specific tiers based on need.
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