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Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

sociable.co

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Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#11

Post by sesteel »

maxxxxx wrote: post #3

I like the idea but I doubt this will be sustainable long-term. There is already a lot of pressure to reduce the social safety net and to have more tax cuts for the "job creators". Why would this be any different with UBI? The people who work full-time jobs will complain about the slackers who do nothing. Maybe once almost everything is automated there is a better chance to do this. Personally I think it would be bet…

I think many people view UBI as transformative (as you suggest), though they don't always talk about it in those terms. Increasingly, production and services will be automated leaving fewer and fewer jobs for people. In a far off dystopian future, there will be some Ubercorp that does everything, controls all production and services leaving no paid work for people. UBI is simply a means for smoothing out the transition for people to new careers or a world where fewer jobs exist. Obviously, as things become more automated, taxes on these corps will have to increase. There has to be a cash flow cycle, otherwise money will pool at the top among the shareholders of the companies that won the automation race. Thus, as long as there is cash flowing from the bottom to the top (thanks to UBI) it is sustainable. Otherwise, the economy will be broken; it already is for some now.

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#13

Post by insickness »

UBI will never replace welfare. People are not going to agree to cut off current welfare programs.

And it will not stay at a $1000. It will go up. Not long after implementation, a politician will soon say that $1000 is not a livable wage and that it needs to be $2000. The next politician will say that it needs to be $5000. Basically this opens the door to socialism where we will just be haggling on the amount of wealth redistribution. Wealth redistribution doesn't work and never has.

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#14

Post by tomschlick »

undersuit wrote: post #9
tomschlick wrote: post #5

Nobody can ever answer the question of "What happens when someone blows their UBI and cant afford to eat?" Will we let them starve? You'd almost have to from the government side of things. How about 5 years after when someone introduces another entitlement program to help single mothers/seniors/etc and then criticizes everyone else as heartless for not supporting it? Will we just end up where we are now with even mor…

What happens now? What about the people right now that cannot afford to eat? And I'm not talking about the panhandler on the street. There are families right now who cannot afford to feed themselves, even with federal assistance.

How so? The average family of 4 on Snap benefits receives $465/mo for food. If you can't buy groceries on that then you're doing something wrong.

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#15

Post by undersuit »

tomschlick wrote: post #14
undersuit wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens now? What about the people right now that cannot afford to eat? And I'm not talking about the panhandler on the street. There are families right now who cannot afford to feed themselves, even with federal assistance.

How so? The average family of 4 on Snap benefits receives $465/mo for food. If you can't buy groceries on that then you're doing something wrong.

Please answer the question. If you can't live on $1000 a month from the federal government I think you're doing something wrong.

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#16

Post by basch »

tomschlick wrote: post #5

Nobody can ever answer the question of "What happens when someone blows their UBI and cant afford to eat?" Will we let them starve? You'd almost have to from the government side of things. How about 5 years after when someone introduces another entitlement program to help single mothers/seniors/etc and then criticizes everyone else as heartless for not supporting it? Will we just end up where we are now with even mor…

I've asked this elsewhere recently but here it goes again.

Im sure Im wrong, but wouldnt it make sense to start with like "all rice, bean, potatoes, and broccoli consumption at the personal level is free" and start with a food stamp / ebt that buys unlimited of something very specific? It wouldnt be a currency thats worth trading to other people, landlords couldnt collect ebt credits in lieu of rent, because everyone would already have unlimited.

I guess I dont understand why UBI proponents think CASH is the best idea, compared to more specific tiers like "600 for healthy food, 100 to treat yourself, 300 for xxxxx." I guess I also find it confusing why it has to be nothing or 100% without any sort of gradual experimentation. Why does the program have to immediately ramp up to the full plan?

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#17

Post by wmf »

mac01021 wrote: post #4
umadon wrote: post #2

UBI smells like a trojan horse for privatization of what remains of social security, disability, unemployment, etc. I would much rather have a robust national pension system than "Uber, but for retirement."

How would it lead to privatization of those things?

Many UBI advocates explicitly say that UBI should replace all existing welfare programs and people should use their UBI to purchase any services (e.g. insurance) they need from private companies.

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#18

Post by maxxxxx »

sesteel wrote: post #11
maxxxxx wrote: post #3

I like the idea but I doubt this will be sustainable long-term. There is already a lot of pressure to reduce the social safety net and to have more tax cuts for the "job creators". Why would this be any different with UBI? The people who work full-time jobs will complain about the slackers who do nothing. Maybe once almost everything is automated there is a better chance to do this. Personally I think it would be bet…

I think many people view UBI as transformative (as you suggest), though they don't always talk about it in those terms. Increasingly, production and services will be automated leaving fewer and fewer jobs for people. In a far off dystopian future, there will be some Ubercorp that does everything, controls all production and services leaving no paid work for people. UBI is simply a means for smoothing out the transiti…

" Otherwise, the economy will be broken; it already is for some now."

If we introduce UBI it would probably be one of the first times in history that society addresses major changes without war, revolution or other upheaval. My prediction is that inequality will grow, a lot of people will lose their jobs, but nothing will change fundamentally without a major conflict.

We see that already with climate change. There clearly is no will to really address the issues. We'll have sea levels rising, millions of refugees and somehow deal with that. We will not prevent that.

Re: Universal Basic Income is 'best way to distribute equity stake in productivity’

#20

Post by maxxxxx »

insickness wrote: post #13

UBI will never replace welfare. People are not going to agree to cut off current welfare programs. And it will not stay at a $1000. It will go up. Not long after implementation, a politician will soon say that $1000 is not a livable wage and that it needs to be $2000. The next politician will say that it needs to be $5000. Basically this opens the door to socialism where we will just be haggling on the amount of weal…

All Western countries (including the US) do some kind of wealth distribution and it clearly works. Societies without any form of wealth distribution don't work. Or do you have an example? I can't think of any.
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