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Facebook’s Cryptocurrency: Stop It Before It Starts

lawfareblog.com

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Re: Facebook’s Cryptocurrency: Stop It Before It Starts

#41

Post by jlmorton »

wilg wrote: post #22
jlmorton wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After all cash physically allows money laundering, should we ban cash? Yes, we probably should, now that better alternatives exist. We should have public postal banking, so no one is unbanked. And then we should stop issuing cash.

What better alternatives exist?

Preferably low-cost digital payments, such as debit cards, mobile payments, or whatever else, perhaps including cryptocurrencies like Libra.

I understand many of these methods as they exist in the US come with significant fees, although debit cards have improved significantly since Dodd-Frank.

Sweden will stop accepting cash payments in 2023, and already nearly 90% of transactions are completed without it. There's not a one-size solution, but 98% of Swedes have a bank card, and 60% have used mobile payment app Swish over the past year.

Re: Facebook’s Cryptocurrency: Stop It Before It Starts

#42

Post by tim333 »

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #33
camjohnson26 wrote: post #10

People who think the government should have the technological power to decide who pays who in the world need to ask themselves this. Do you think that there should be a hardware filter on all internet fiber cables that allows the government to filter that traffic? Banning cryptocurrencies because they physically allow money laundering is as logically indefensible as banning internet fibers because they physically all…

I foresee money laundering eventually getting decriminalized, much like drugs are right now. The pretext of the offence always felt strange to me. If I robbed a bank, did a getaway drive but got caught afterwards, I expect to be charged with robbery, not driving.

The trend seems the other way if anything, that its being more clamped down on.

If you rob a bank and make off with $10m in banknotes the kind of offence would be your lawyer certifying it came from honest sources and letting you buy a mansion with it.

The argument for criminalising it is the lawyer would be assisting in your operation and effectively encouraging you to rob more banks which is not victimless in the way smoking a joint may be.

Re: Facebook’s Cryptocurrency: Stop It Before It Starts

#43

Post by plankers »

>It is not live yet, giving governments the opportunity to kill this project before it actually gets off the ground and gives rise to cybercriminals that couldn’t capitalize on existing cryptocurrencies.

Excuse me, I need a minute to stop laughing... Ahem, alright. In what world are criminals going to prefer using a cryptocurrency overseen by Facebook (however directly or indirectly) to using coins like Monero or Zcash, which have been built with privacy-enhancing feautures? And who are these criminals who couldn't figure out how to use these coins who are suddenly going to be enabled by this new blockchain?

I should have stopped reading there, this guy has no idea what he's talking about.

Re: Facebook’s Cryptocurrency: Stop It Before It Starts

#45

Post by tenpies »

tim333 wrote: post #42
Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I foresee money laundering eventually getting decriminalized, much like drugs are right now. The pretext of the offence always felt strange to me. If I robbed a bank, did a getaway drive but got caught afterwards, I expect to be charged with robbery, not driving.

The trend seems the other way if anything, that its being more clamped down on. If you rob a bank and make off with $10m in banknotes the kind of offence would be your lawyer certifying it came from honest sources and letting you buy a mansion with it. The argument for criminalising it is the lawyer would be assisting in your operation and effectively encouraging you to rob more banks which is not victimless in the w…

Yes, the desired outcome by the governments seems to be:

> You rob a bank and make off with $10 MM in bank notes

> They strike those bank notes' serials from a central database and you are now holding a duffel bag of paper.

Fiat currency is just make belief paper. It's backed by nothing but hopes and dreams at this point, so the actual paper you hold is really just a manifestation of that. It has no inherent value beyond what the government says it's worth.

If we move to centralized ledgers it becomes even easier for them to decide which transactions are legitimate and which are not. Of course this then extends to:

> You tried to give $5 to a government critic's podcast

> The transaction was flagged as illegitimate and cancelled. Your $5 was returned to you.

Re: Facebook’s Cryptocurrency: Stop It Before It Starts

#46

Post by Gibbon1 »

tenpies wrote: post #45
tim333 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trend seems the other way if anything, that its being more clamped down on. If you rob a bank and make off with $10m in banknotes the kind of offence would be your lawyer certifying it came from honest sources and letting you buy a mansion with it. The argument for criminalising it is the lawyer would be assisting in your operation and effectively encouraging you to rob more banks which is not victimless in the w…

Yes, the desired outcome by the governments seems to be: > You rob a bank and make off with $10 MM in bank notes > They strike those bank notes' serials from a central database and you are now holding a duffel bag of paper. Fiat currency is just make belief paper. It's backed by nothing but hopes and dreams at this point, so the actual paper you hold is really just a manifestation of that. It has no inherent value be…

US Fiat currency is backed by nuclear weapons.

Re: Facebook’s Cryptocurrency: Stop It Before It Starts

#47

Post by drivingmenuts »

jlmorton wrote: post #41
wilg wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What better alternatives exist?

Preferably low-cost digital payments, such as debit cards, mobile payments, or whatever else, perhaps including cryptocurrencies like Libra. I understand many of these methods as they exist in the US come with significant fees, although debit cards have improved significantly since Dodd-Frank. Sweden will stop accepting cash payments in 2023, and already nearly 90% of transactions are completed without it. There's no…

Electronic payments completely exclude the unbanked and cost proportionally far more for low-income brackets. Cash is the only near-zero or zero cost transaction method available.

Re: Facebook’s Cryptocurrency: Stop It Before It Starts

#48

Post by adyus »

jameslevy wrote: post #8

"But since Libra pegged is to a basket of currencies, it is not actually stable." A weighted basket of the top 5 currencies by market capitalization should be more stable than the dollar. The point about taxable income is true, although if I would rather pay tax on income I made from Libra than not had earned the income at all. Unless the dollar crashes hard I wouldn't expect this to be a meaningful amount of income.

Hey, that already exists (at nation-level): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_drawing_rights

Re: Facebook’s Cryptocurrency: Stop It Before It Starts

#50

Post by jddj »

plankers wrote: post #43

>It is not live yet, giving governments the opportunity to kill this project before it actually gets off the ground and gives rise to cybercriminals that couldn’t capitalize on existing cryptocurrencies. Excuse me, I need a minute to stop laughing... Ahem, alright. In what world are criminals going to prefer using a cryptocurrency overseen by Facebook (however directly or indirectly) to using coins like Monero or Zca…

The ability of criminals to capitalise also depends on the people being exploited, no?

When the proverbial Nigerian Prince's legal fees are denominated in Monero there's a much higher barrier to entry for the average scammee. One could see this lowering significantly with the adoption of Libras.

Although to me it also seems possible that in the face of government KYC-style opposition, Facebook will use their Libra to advance their Real Name policy, bringing them one step closer to being the true 1:1 online representation of a person, essential for more and more services and tracked in higher and higher fidelity.

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