Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

citylab.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 168 posts

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#91

Post by imgabe »

atonse wrote: post #41
sdinsn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So perhaps they should split a 2/3 bedroom with roommates? If someone makes the absolute legal minimum, why does every expect them to live alone?

Or maybe we can actually pay people a wage allowing them to lead some semblance of a decent life? Why does it fall on them, instead of the actual businesses paying them?

Are you asking why it falls on individual people to sort out their own lives and arrange their accommodations to their own liking?

Maybe because we prefer to grant individuals some degree of personal autonomy instead of making them dependent wards of whatever place they happen to work?

A business has the job of running itself in a profitable manner. Not babysitting what should be functional adults.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#92

Post by SomeOldThrow »

leereeves wrote: post #87
SomeOldThrow wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it’s not. It’s the foundation of market economies, which are not the only way to distribute goods and services. There are many alternatives to this.

Like Venezuela, Cuba, and the Soviet Union? Those alternatives aren't better.

Look at singapore for an alternative that isn’t associated with anti-socialized scare tactics. Soviets had a lot of issues but lack of housing wasn’t one of them. Same for cuba, although the sanctions have crippled the economy to make quality housing difficult. I can’t speak for venezuela housing as i have not researched it, and it seems weird to clump a country with a mostly private economy in with self-proclaimed communist countries.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#93

Post by cwkoss »

tcfunk wrote: post #32
djschnei wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh I'm not positive it should even be able to support a single person... Why do we insist on raising the bar for employment so high? If a 16 year old wants to get their first job, they shouldn't be required right of the bat have a productive output sufficient to support themselves. That's not the point of minimum wage jobs - or at least it never was until we started arbitrarily setting a minimum value.

That's all well and good if 16 year olds are the only ones making minimum wage. And if their parents haven't kicked them out of the house already because they got pregnant too early. Or have a sexual orientation that their parents don't agree with. Or..

It would be great if we could both implement a UBI and eliminate the minimum wage.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#94

Post by Kalium »

true_religion wrote: post #33
Kalium wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are using a 1950s-era nuclear family model, with the idea that a minimum wage should support a family of at least two adults and one child. Preferably with a yard, lawn, dog, and white picket fence.

Minimum wage doesn’t track inflation. If it did, I would have no complaints. But it’s hard for me to understand people saying minimum wage should only be for one person eking out a bare existence, when it’s value in real money has fallen over the past 70 years.

Would you be happy if minimum wage was CPI-indexed to track the cost for one adult's bare-bones existence? Obviously this also requires defining what that minimum is, as social norms are also subject to inflation - when a US minimum wage was introduced boarding houses were common. Now they're unheard of.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#95

Post by SomeOldThrow »

bluGill wrote: post #45
SomeOldThrow wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minimum wage earners can often afford two bedroom homes priced at the lower end. [citation needed] Looking around the bay they appear to simply become homeless, especially if there's any interruption in work, and if they're lucky they're able to move away before this happens.

Location location location. Try looking around some city not well known for insane housing prices.

Try moving cities without a home or a job, looking to survive on the street.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#96

Post by SomeOldThrow »

magashna wrote: post #47
SomeOldThrow wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Minimum wage earners can often afford two bedroom homes priced at the lower end. [citation needed] Looking around the bay they appear to simply become homeless, especially if there's any interruption in work, and if they're lucky they're able to move away before this happens.

the bay is not lower end is it

Every market has a working class. You can’t just pretend supply and demand will provide labor with perfect elasticity. Part of why development is so difficult is the labor pool in the bay area is massively outstripped by demand for labor driving up costs and slowing down development.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#97

Post by throwaway98434 »

kemitche wrote: post #77
throwaway98434 wrote: post #8

This article like so many others makes a critical mistake in using a median price for minimum earners. A minimum wage earner is not and should not be in the market for a median priced home. A median wage earner would pursue a median priced home. A bottom quartile earner would pursue homes priced in the bottom quartile. Not the median. The title of this article is false. Minimum wage earners can often afford two bedro…

Neither the title nor the article use the word "median" - they appear to be using the concept of "Fair Market Rents" (FMR), which is a 40th percentile[1] of non-sub-standard units. The article calls out that even the _average_ wage earner can't afford an FMR unit in many states: > For a two-bedroom rental, the Housing Wage is $22.96—a figure that’s higher than average renters’ wages everywhere, and at least $5.00 hig…

There are multiple points where averaging is employed.

FMR is a close to median value. From the linked definition: "The FMR is the 40th percentile of gross rents for typical, non-substandard rental units occupied by recent movers in a local housing market"

Additionally, FMR is itself statewide average, covering both high and low cost of living areas. Low cost of living counties have units available for far below FMR values.

Low end housing in low cost of living areas can be found for under $377/mo - their estimate of affordable minimum wage rent.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#98

Post by cwkoss »

atonse wrote: post #41
sdinsn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So perhaps they should split a 2/3 bedroom with roommates? If someone makes the absolute legal minimum, why does every expect them to live alone?

Or maybe we can actually pay people a wage allowing them to lead some semblance of a decent life? Why does it fall on them, instead of the actual businesses paying them?

> we can actually pay people

We should implement a UBI - minimum wage is not an effective method for decreasing poverty long term. Raising the minimum wage decreases demand for labor. A high minimum wage is only currently useful because of the other failures in our social safety net.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#99

Post by xienze »

true_religion wrote: post #33
Kalium wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are using a 1950s-era nuclear family model, with the idea that a minimum wage should support a family of at least two adults and one child. Preferably with a yard, lawn, dog, and white picket fence.

Minimum wage doesn’t track inflation. If it did, I would have no complaints. But it’s hard for me to understand people saying minimum wage should only be for one person eking out a bare existence, when it’s value in real money has fallen over the past 70 years.

What everyone fails to realize is that every job has a maximum value associated with it, and therefore a maximum wage, assuming your employer isn’t in the business of losing money. When you raise the minimum wage to $X/hr, by necessity employers (again, in the interests of not losing money) will no longer be able to offer jobs that generate less than $X/hr in revenue. This becomes a problem for people who lack the skill to perform a job that generates at least $X/hr — they become unemployable, either through job elimination or automation.

Re: Minimum Wage Still Can’t Pay For A Two-Bedroom Apartment Anywhere

#100

Post by viklove »

antidaily wrote: post #39
sdinsn wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So perhaps they should split a 2/3 bedroom with roommates? If someone makes the absolute legal minimum, why does every expect them to live alone?

With kids, though?

If you're working a minimum wage job, maybe don't have kids?
Post reply on HN