Live data from Hacker News

Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

theverge.com

321–330 of 620 posts

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#321
post #277

> there are two sets of entry-level knowledge workers at Facebook: > engineers ($150k/year, benefits, upward career trajectory) and > content moderators ($30k/year, no benefits, likely going to acquire mental illnesses). If Facebook could get away with paying engineers $30K/year, no benefits, believe me, they would.

>likely going to acquire mental illnesses I find hard to believe humans are so sensitive that some visual stimulation is going to give them mental illnesses. We evolved in an environment where violence was part of real life and a real threat to our own well being, seeing it on a screen will elicit emotions we may not be used to in modern life, but causing mental illness is a stretch.

The job is to view an endless parade of the most creatively horrible things people have ever said to each other or captured on film, all day every day.

The job itself requires you to actually scrutinize the details-- averting your eyes is not an option. The job is to look at and mentally process each artifact.

Violence in our origins at least had a point. Kill for survival. Kill for food. Killing meant something.

Raping children never served any biological purpose, nor does watching actual people explode. There are many reasons we try to make the world such that neither is a part of anybody's life.

(ed) Put it this way-- if it's so harmless for people to be exposed to, why moderate anything at all?

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of variance between individuals. Given the choice this sounds like an overall better job than working a busy McDonald's drive through (people are assholes when they're hungry) but I'm not the kind of person that's particularly bothered by graphic violence. My opinion of humanity is dark enough to accommodate it. I'm sure many people would prefer McDonald's though. Some of the people interviewed were com…

I think perhaps people feel that you are minimizing the horror and repulsiveness of the content by saying that these moderators have a better job than working at a fast food restaurant. My wife, who has worked in a busy McDonald's for 5 years, says this sort of moderation is far, far worse than anything she had to deal with. And she's had to deal with human waste, violence, and direct verbal abuse from customers. You…

>I think perhaps people feel that you are minimizing the horror and repulsiveness of the content by saying that these moderators have a better job than working at a fast food restaurant.

I think that perhaps those people need to realize that not everyone is as easily rattled as them. Some people go to the Holocaust museum and are mortified by the details of it and are sad for a week. Some people go and are like "yeah, people do terrible things sometimes, this is just the worst systemic instance to date" and then go out for beers afterward. Whenever there's an armed conflict there's some people who are F'd up by what they see and there's some people who say "yeah that sucked and I'm glad it's over" and there's people in between. I think it's pretty evident that the ability to cope with violence varies a lot between individuals.

>My wife, who has worked in a busy McDonald's for 5 years, says this sort of moderation is far, far worse than anything she had to deal with. And she's had to deal with human waste, violence, and direct verbal abuse from customers.

I've done that too. I'll take hospital janitor over anything in food service. The general public sucks. The floor doesn't complain when you didn't mop it up just the way it wanted. I'd probably try my hand at a moderating job before I went back to food service. Blood, violence, obscene pornography, etc, etc don't bother me. It's nasty but whatever, some people are terrible so what do you expect. There's other things that bother me but those aren't it.

> your assertion that the horrific content is acceptable to "many people".

There's levels of acceptable and there's a reason these employees are being paid more than those of the call center across the office park. I'm not suggesting that some employees find it acceptable in the abstract. I'm saying they are not so easily mentally harmed by it to consider it not worth the pay.

I see it no different than a physically fit 20yo who finds a ditch digging job to be worth his while because he can handle it whereas the 50yo almost certainly cannot handle it without much greater negative health consequences. If you can hack it for the pay then why not.

>I don't think that means I'm "wrong", any more than your views are "right".

You're not asserting that nobody can do this job and I'm asserting that there exist people who can do this job (or at least people who whom the "shitty call center job" conditions are the primary irritant preventing them from doing this job). That said, the down-vote to reply ration makes me suspect that many people simply do not believe that some other people do not think like them.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#323

> there are two sets of entry-level knowledge workers at Facebook: > engineers ($150k/year, benefits, upward career trajectory) and > content moderators ($30k/year, no benefits, likely going to acquire mental illnesses). If Facebook could get away with paying engineers $30K/year, no benefits, believe me, they would.

A company that made 15B can't afford to raise salaries? What a ludicrous statement to make.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#324
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine many people wouldn't. It's potentially shortsighted to have that sort of myopic utility maximizing mindset when it causes you to debase other values like social stability. But in a society that advocates the hustle, I gotta get mine, right? /s

Sure, but this seems arbitrary. Why is $150K great but $30K isn't? At what level of income for software engineers would you consider employers to be "debasing" the values of social stability? What's so unstable about a world in which software engineers don't make a ton of money?

I guess it's expected in HN that someone would focus on the software engineer pay, but that largely misses the point. I don't think anyone was arguing that the SWE in this case was overpaid. Perhaps there's a case that, in the context of the moderators who make so much less, it can create a wealth inequality that leads to social instability, but I don't thinks there's enough information for that claim.

I would argue that there is a non-arbitrary point below which someone cannot meet the items that produce a stable society. Things like being able to raise a family, save for retirement, pay for healthcare etc. When those things are absent people become more reliant on a government/society has to fill in the gaps. When people live paycheck-to-paycheck, depending on government subsidies, it certainly can affect social stability.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much would you pay your house cleaner? 100k a year? Do you tip $100 USD in restaurants so that waiters can enjoy similar effective salary?

Neither of those require years of education and training.

Does being a Facebook moderator?

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#326
post #249

“I think Facebook needs to shut down." As I've spent the last few years pissing away absurd amounts of time on the platform, gotten in countless fruitless arguments, and seen the truly vile and toxic elements of my communities exposed and worn like a badge, this is an idea I've been thinking an awful lot about. After reading this article, I've never been more certain of that statement.

"We have met the enemy and he is us." https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Pogo_-_Earth_... Shutting down FB will just create this problem in the next popular social media platform. This is a problem that needs to be solved, and shutting companies down won't do it.

Some problems can only be solved one generation at a time. Maybe facebook dying and the new generation coming to age is exactly what society needs.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I started working with Class 3B lasers at my lab, I had to undergo an initial medical exam, and then periodic ones to make sure my eyesight wasn't being affected. Guess what the company should be doing?

I mean, come on. If the article had said there are mandatory mental health screenings, and mandatory transfers if you don’t pass, you know everyone would be pointing to it as another example of how the content moderators are being mistreated.

The idea is that employees would get mandatory mental health care with licensed professionals, and not the 1 counselor that didn't know how to help.

Yeah, I would support transfers to non-moderation tasks if the moderator was psychologically unfit to perform the job, rather than keeping them on and putting more pressure on.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#328
post #261
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If minimum wage were $15, they could find another job that paid their basic living expenses. Why is this necessarily true? Couldn't it be the case that minimum wage were $15 but they still couldn't find any other job?

Currently we have a surplus of actual jobs, it's just that a large number of them pay sub-living wages. If those were forced to pay more - even if it meant some of them disappeared - many more people would have the opportunity to climb out of poverty. Edit: I may have misspoken when I said "surplus". What I was referring to is the very low unemployment rate we currently have, despite large numbers of people - with "j…

If there is a surplus of actual jobs, then they are being forced to pay more already; but they're not, hence the surplus.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's knowledge workers vs unskilled labour.

It's not "unskilled" so much as (a) it can be learned on the job and (b) people don't see why they should pay more for top talent. The second one is pretty important. Consider that sales, sports, and entertainment work similarly, where you can make a case that you should pay more to get the best and workers (or their agents) can use this to good effect.

I think "unskilled" and "can be learned on the job" are usually considered equivalent. Nearly anything you need to hire a human to do requires some kind of learning, at least to do "well" or "our way".

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#330
post #261
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If minimum wage were $15, they could find another job that paid their basic living expenses. Why is this necessarily true? Couldn't it be the case that minimum wage were $15 but they still couldn't find any other job?

Currently we have a surplus of actual jobs, it's just that a large number of them pay sub-living wages. If those were forced to pay more - even if it meant some of them disappeared - many more people would have the opportunity to climb out of poverty. Edit: I may have misspoken when I said "surplus". What I was referring to is the very low unemployment rate we currently have, despite large numbers of people - with "j…

Or we'd see a bump in automation and a reduction in the number of jobs available. When you raise the price of something (labor), corporations will reduce their consumption of it.
Post reply on HN