Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#211

Post by pfortuny » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

xnyan wrote: post #195

ralusek wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how this isn't a problem perfectly solved by the market. If it's a shit job that isn't worth the pay, people won't do it. If it's an okay job that isn't really worth the pay, they will have high turnover. High turnover has a cost, maybe it's worth it to them. If the turnover is so high or the job is so undesirable, maybe they'll axe the role. If the role is so important to the business that it can'…

"And the Union workhouses." demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?" "Both very busy, sir..." "Those who are badly off must go there." "Many can't go there; and many would rather die." "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population." C. Dickens: A Christmas Carol. In Prose. Being a Ghost Story of Christmas, 1843

Thanks for posting this. There are people who do not get it.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#212

Post by luckylion » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:56 PM UTC

bumby wrote: post #202

lexapro wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, that's kinda how free markets work.

Except we don't have those Ayn Rand-ian free markets for a reason. We have a whole host of workers rights in the U.S. because society realized that leaving everything up to free markets to take advantage of what they can may lead to bad outcomes.

^ for engineers. It obviously works for moderators, and this isn't the first instance it has been reported on, so it appears that there is no outcry from society to be expected any time soon - they know, and they don't care.

I'm convinced they would care if it affected those with higher education from wealthy families (i.e. those that become engineers and managers) more, but it doesn't, they are well protected.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#213

Post by Nav_Panel » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #164

save_ferris wrote: post #43

It’s strange how quiet the pro-Facebookers become on threads like these. Yesterday, we saw a lot of energy around Libra on both sides of the Facebook spectrum. I’d love to hear an argument from someone defending this company that isn’t “everybody does it.”

Personally, I skimmed the article and failed to see anything particularly bad about it. Typical unskilled office job, with handpicked horror stories. As usual, the author manages to make the employer responsible for employee's life situation. But aside from an impulse of assigning blame on the closest most powerful actor related to situation, I don't see any reason to see Facebook in any kind of negative light for th…

The distinction between content moderation and other sorts of "unskilled office work" is the distressing nature of the content. My gut feeling is that these aren't "handpicked horror stories" but are instead the core of the job: facing video evidence of the worst aspects of human cruelty for 8 hours a day. Thus, the question raised isn't a simple "shouldn't these employees be treated better?" but something more like "how can we accept the existence of a job like this?"

In my personal opinion, as someone who's moderated online communities before, Facebook needs to accept that any "system of [ethical] rules" is prone to being "lawyered", and ultimately serves to waste the time of content moderators like these. More importantly, few accept such a system of rules as legitimate: any rule set, even if "fair", is going to be judged by its edge cases, e.g. https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-hate-speech-cens...

The answer is to deploy an aggressive moderation AI, and tell users "too damn bad" if their post gets deleted (users will protest about "free speech" but that philosophical principle was created in a very different communication environment. If I had to create a new right more suited to the modern day, it'd be a right to "freedom from speech" instead), or else dramatically limit the sphere of content users are exposed to (although that would go against their whole ethos "connecting the world" or whatever).

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#214

Post by matz1 » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

cldellow wrote: post #178

Nasrudith wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is because it is a waste of their time and a bad approach and everyone knows it fundamentally on some level - however nice the eglatarian ideal would be in other ways. It would be like expecting doctors to clean bedpans. Now it is a neccessary task and those who do so should receive appropriate respect even if it is just "Thanks glad I don't have to do it." but anyone off the street and willing to do the dirty job…

Yes, I should perhaps clarify - I mentioned developers to point out that Facebook has the resources to provide excellent working conditions. If I can adapt (and perhaps torture) your analogy, I'd say it's like Facebook currently has doctors who save lives and command high salaries, and janitors who change bedpans but don't have access to hot water and latex gloves. So inevitably, the janitors catch a disease (hospita…

The different is there are plenty of people who are not affected negatively with those "horrible" content. Me for example, if not for the low salary I would do it.

Content moderation job is not for everyone.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#215

Post by daxterspeed » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #164

save_ferris wrote: post #43

It’s strange how quiet the pro-Facebookers become on threads like these. Yesterday, we saw a lot of energy around Libra on both sides of the Facebook spectrum. I’d love to hear an argument from someone defending this company that isn’t “everybody does it.”

Personally, I skimmed the article and failed to see anything particularly bad about it. Typical unskilled office job, with handpicked horror stories. As usual, the author manages to make the employer responsible for employee's life situation. But aside from an impulse of assigning blame on the closest most powerful actor related to situation, I don't see any reason to see Facebook in any kind of negative light for th…

Facebook is in charge of demanding that these people to re-watch the same gore videos over and over. I'd wager that the vast majority of gore videos uploaded to Facebook can be identified from a few couple keyframes. They shouldn't have to listen to the audio of the video unless absolutely necessary either.

Facebook has actively designed this system that's extremely hostile and damaging towards their moderators and they should absolutely take all blame for the faults in that system.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#216

Post by jumbopapa » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:58 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #203

debacle wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody moves for $30k a year.

Lol. Ever seen a migrant camp? Ever talked to a seasonal farm laborer? People will literally walk across continents for 30k/years. https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Soldier/Salary

Sounds like $30k is an improvement in their lives then, so is it really "too little"?

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#217

Post by pfortuny » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #164

save_ferris wrote: post #43

It’s strange how quiet the pro-Facebookers become on threads like these. Yesterday, we saw a lot of energy around Libra on both sides of the Facebook spectrum. I’d love to hear an argument from someone defending this company that isn’t “everybody does it.”

Personally, I skimmed the article and failed to see anything particularly bad about it. Typical unskilled office job, with handpicked horror stories. As usual, the author manages to make the employer responsible for employee's life situation. But aside from an impulse of assigning blame on the closest most powerful actor related to situation, I don't see any reason to see Facebook in any kind of negative light for th…

Clearly you just skimmed.

Or perhaps in your office you deal constantly with anger, perversion, violence and gore?

Where is that office?

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#218

Post by asark » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

worble wrote: post #138

jklinger410 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only if they dole out libra-bux

>libra-bux Personally I'm fond of zucc-bux

Seen on here the other day (can't remember the poster to credit them): "Douche Mark". A play on Deutsche Mark, for those who are either not European or not old enough to remember that currency, as seemed to be the case with some respondents to the original post.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#219

Post by aeorgnoieang » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 3:00 PM UTC

ralphstodomingo wrote: post #103

I'm sure such scale requires heavy moderation. It pains me to realize the cost of enjoying the benefits of social media - if any, at all - that it makes me wonder whether we should have it in the first place at all. I can imagine a world without Facebook.

It's sad to realize that the world is worse than we previously thought, but it's not obviously worse overall. Not having social media, or anything similar, and thus not having to moderate awful content, wouldn't (necessarily) cause all of the terrible behavior depicted in that content to not happen.

People can be awful. So can other organisms (independent of whether they're evil or just immoral). Not facing that fact, at all, isn't obviously best.

Re: Facebook moderators break NDAs to expose working conditions

#220

Post by redm » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 3:00 PM UTC

rawrmaan wrote: post #137

redm wrote: post #134

This story reads like a journalist trying to find some dirt on Facebook because its “hot” right now. Its the inverse of writing fluff stories when everyones excited about a startup. This story isn't even Facebook. I worked tech support for Acer in the 90s and its a similar setup. If they took the time to have “relaxation” rooms, i doubt its as bad as the story makes it out to be.

You obviously didn't read the article.

Actually, I did, obviously. I feel I have a much better picture of contracted centers like the one described in the article than a sensationalizing story from The Verge could inform me of though.