Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#551

Post by hwio » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:18 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #511

jordanbeiber wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m just saying that with capitalism comes politics. Always have, always will. To believe otherwise is a bit naive. Politics can be used to even things out as was done over here from the turn of the century up until, I’d say, 70-80s. The last few decades have been way to market/neoliberal policy wise, and in many ways we’re seeing the effect today. I just think you’re a bit binary here. I come from a struggling famil…

> I’m just saying that with capitalism comes politics. I don't see that. I'm not with the mainstream politics at all in my country, yet I face very little inconveniences precisely because money determines whether I can buy a phone, not politics. We might talk about different kind of politics. You want regulation (for example on predatory lending), and I'm fine with that. I don't want "social criteria" (as in "what ge…

I just don't think that makes much sense. Social criteria like where you went to school is one of the most important things in very capitalist countries. It didn't used to be very important in Sweden 20 years ago. There were also essentially no social housing, university dorms, private kindergartens, minimum wage or employer provided health care. Social criteria are a big thing in capitalist countries where inequality is accepted. Countries like Sweden have less social criteria as most people getting the same deal, so there is less of a need to treat people differently. At the same time the Nordic countries have had the best social mobility in the developed world (at least in terms of income).

> It's like a feudal society where your class if fixed at birth. I prefer pure capitalism over that.

What?

Edit: Nothing in my comment is inaccurate. Just because you hide arguments doesn't make yours any better, in fact it makes them worse. And if you don't revaluate your own opinion when the mob tries to censor those they feel are wrong you can't expect to be smart.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#552

Post by hwio » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:24 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #513

WalterBright wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also nails the feet of the people who live there to the floor, because they know they can't get such a deal again if they move. This is economically and environmentally inefficient, because it traps people in less desirable jobs due to proximity, and prevents them from moving closer to work.

Ah yeah, another huge problem that I forgot to mention. This really kills the liquidity of the market. You see the same dynamic with sales in CA due to Prop 13 - this makes it so that elderly people can’t afford to downsize, because their property taxes would go up 10-20x for many of them if they moved to an equivalent place, and it’s economical for people to sit on extremely valuable undeveloped land and wait for it…

If there weren't for things like rent control or prop 13 those people would just be suffering anyway as rents or property values would increase where they live as well. So I don't see that argument making much sense. Thing like prop 13 is probably damaging because it inflates property values however.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#553

Post by SomeOldThrow » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

codedokode wrote: post #175

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who looks at regulations like this and sees the Soviet Union is themselves a lunatic. This is not a planned economy, and people do not need to profit from housing to build it, and housing should be a human right.

Nice idea. Can I have a free apartment in the centre of Moscow within 5 minutes walk from subway then? What I want to say is that houses are different and there are places where everybody wants to live and where nobody wants, and that is why the housing prices can be so high. Maybe instead of asking for a fixed rent people should consider a cheaper place to live? Everybody cannot live within 5 minutes from a subway s…

The answer is just a google away! I’m guessing you know nothing about social housing based on this comment.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#554

Post by MagnumOpus » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #451

ericd wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it screws over anyone who wasn’t lucky enough to win that lottery.

The lottery of having already lived there? Only in the same sense as if I have a doll, you're screwed out of having that doll.

Have you ever noticed the odd fact that children sometimes grow up and wish to rent a home themselves?

They already might live there with their parents, but if they want to move out and stand on their own feet, they would have to pay double or triple compared to their neighbours. Hence they can not move out from mum's basement if they don't want to move away.

Of course this helps resident retirees who don't move and whose children have moved out, even if it is an economically retarded policy -- and retirees vote. Same as California's prop 13, really.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#555

Post by hwio » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

hnick wrote: post #550

thirdsun wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if anything it matters more, since every minute spent idle (e.g. travelling to meet someone) has a higher associated cost due to the opportunity cost of lost productivity. Which sounds like another vote for remote work instead of clumping and clustering. Why care about proximity and the time it takes to travel when everyone you'd want to meet, regardless of location, is a message, call or video conference away…

I totally agree. I'm just trying to get my head around why it seems that our promised decentralisation never came to be. Maybe old habits just die hard.

It is decentralized, just family rather than work.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#556

Post by amai » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

iso-8859-1 wrote: post #299

More details on the German Wikipedia article (it can be translated): https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mietpreisbindung#Mietpreisbrem... Interestingly, legislation like this was in effect from 1945-1988 in West-Berlin.

Interesting, this legislation actually was invented by the Nazis:

"On October 17, 1936, the National Socialists imposed a rent freeze and further rent authorities were established. After the end of National Socialist rule, this regulation initially continued to apply in both parts of Germany, which is why home ownership was often considered "unprofitable" as early as the 1950s, as the costs for maintenance, repairs and administration continued to rise every year.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator"

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#557

Post by candybar » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 3:46 PM UTC

tarsinge wrote: post #484

zanny wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every western nation has systemically failed to recognize or support the insanely high demand for high density living in the 21st century. That is where the future of economics is, where the future of humanity in general pretty much is, and every democracy is consistently demonstrating the total inability for legislatures to sacrifice the advantage of those lucky enough to inhabit cities as they exist now…

Because the root cause is not always high demand, it’s also speculation. Real Estate is now cool again (just look at investing forums or subreddits), and foreign investor money is flowing. Look for example at Portland (OR) how the rent increase correlates with the population increase. The current urban hype alone can not explain these numbers. Also another example since a few years a lot of high earning people in Par…

This doesn't make any sense - real estate speculation would increase the purchase price of real estate but cannot directly impact rental rates. Speculation means people are bidding up prices for real estate beyond what's supportable by current demand, based on expected future demand. This generally doesn't make sense in the rental market - as a tenant, you're not entitled to benefit from any future increase in demand and it doesn't make sense to pay more that what the rental is worth to you now. This means rents, in aggregate, are a relatively accurate measure of the current supply and demand, free of speculative intents.

Ironically, certain types of rent control laws could lead to the rental market being influenced by speculation. Rent control laws effectively turn tenants into partial owners - this means, depending on the law, it may make sense to rent at an above-market rate, if that allows you to keep renting the same unit at what would later be a below-market rate. Likewise, from the landlord's perspective, it may not make sense to rent even at a market rate, because to do so may lock you out of getting what would be a higher market rate in the future.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#558

Post by pergadad » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 3:49 PM UTC

zanny wrote: post #269

max_hoffmann wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freezing rents is not meant to be a solution for a lack of housing. It’s a solution to the explosive increase of rents of existing ones. There are lots of people where the rents of their current apartment have increased so much, that they had to move out. This solution is trying to fix that. Also freezing rents doesn’t mean Berlin will stop building new houses. If there is big demand for housing in a city one needs b…

Pretty much every western nation has systemically failed to recognize or support the insanely high demand for high density living in the 21st century. That is where the future of economics is, where the future of humanity in general pretty much is, and every democracy is consistently demonstrating the total inability for legislatures to sacrifice the advantage of those lucky enough to inhabit cities as they exist now…

Yes and no. Yes your want to make an offer to those arriving, but you also don't want to destroy a city by letting prices go so high that only a certain caste of people is able to afford it - think SF. Not everyone can be rich enough to afford decent living inside a city. And yet you still want cheap burgers and services, as well as public schools and trash collection and police. None of those can afford big city living if you allow the tech & big business crowd to simply price them out of the market.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#559

Post by nemetroid » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 4:06 PM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #527

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't buy any of this. Growing up everyone around me saw the city as somewhere you begrudgingly went out of necessity and only lived there if you had no choice, and I'm inclined to agree. In virtually every aspect I find more countryside-ish living much more pleasant. I don't buy any of this. Growing up, everyone around me saw the suburbs as somewhere you begrudgingly went out of necessity and only lived there if…

I'm always wondering... Where do those city dwellers put their heavy machinery? What? You don't have heavy machinery? Well, no hardware projects for you then. Do people seriously lift a half a ton lathe to the 10th floor of their apartment building and then just go at it?

My (small by international standards) city has several locations where you pay a monthly fee to use a shared workshop.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#560

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 4:18 PM UTC

moate wrote: post #549

lotsofpulp wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the trade-off they are making in exchange for things such as access to more employers. At some point though, they will demand more money or move out, assuming their quality of life relative to other places they can live drops to a sufficiently low level. There are people who are poor and scraping by everywhere, not just cities. Low paying jobs are low paying because the demand is not high enough relative to t…

Also this cute "demand more more or move out" idea isn't even close to reality. You just said there's poor people everywhere. Why move out of a city to be poor when you're just going to be poor somewhere else? To be away from what support network you might have? Because you feel like incurring all the costs associated with moving? Also, your original post implied that the city doesn't "need" these jobs. People need j…

>Why these people aren't paid wages where they can afford to exist is a whole rats nest of economic theory that we don't really need to get into.

It's not a rat's nest of economic theory. People are paid what it costs to replace them, aka opportunity cost. Obviously the very existence of businesses and workers means someone is willing to work for those wages, which means they can afford to exist...since they exist. Whether or not it's a quality of life worth having is a political problem that needs political solution (i.e. basic income).

Based on the experiences of my businesses and people I know who have businesses in cities experiencing rising rent, wages are going up significantly for blue collar work, but at the end of the day, there will always be someone at the lowest end of the pay scale, and that will be the person who is doing work that many others are willing and able to do, which is usually food service/janitorial/security/etc.