Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#531

Post by thirdsun » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 10:35 AM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #487

alisonatwork wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have lived and traveled a lot outside of the city, in North America, Australia and Europe. Trust me when I say the vast majority of rural areas do not have public transport that is remotely comparable to what people enjoy in large cities. I am talking buses, trains, bikes, scooters, all available within a few minutes to take you anywhere you want to go. There is a whole expanse of North America - notably west of th…

That's fine if it works for you. The point here is there's lots to do outside the city, even a lot of exclusive activities. I'm tired of seeing it said that there's "nothing to do" outside the city. Maybe if your only hobbies are nightclubs and getting mugged. Besides that, people who would prefer to not own any car, rent bicycles instead of owning them if they're a bicyclist, and wouldn't want to own a house if they…

> Maybe if your only hobbies are nightclubs and getting mugged.

As someone living in and enjoying rural live with lots of space and quiet I really understand your point, but slightly belittling and disregarding comments like these don't help your argument. It's not that hard to see the attraction of big cities as long as you can imagine that someone might have different interests than you. Of course, this applies to city dwellers unable to see the appeal of rural life as well.

> Besides that, people who would prefer to not own any car, rent bicycles instead of owning them if they're a bicyclist, and wouldn't want to own a house if they had the option sound like a niche minority to me.

I wouldn't put the idea of not owning a car in the same category as your other examples. A car is the first thing I'd get rid of if it wasn't required and I have no doubt that a large and increasing number of people feel the same way.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#532

Post by nickik » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 10:35 AM UTC

oezi wrote: post #248

There are a lot of factors at play here: 1.) Supply is inelastic because construction work and building approvals are limited by current capacity. It is not feasible to expect the market to react as quickly as 600,000 new inhabitants over 10 years required. 2.) A lot of policy is still considering this to be a fad before cities become less popular again. Berlin's plans had for instance foreseen falling demand for sch…

> 3.) Current ECB rates are causing a housing bubble

People keep saying stuff like this but this is a economic theory with very little actual support in any evidence or even in most economic theory of how montary policy works.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#533

Post by nickik » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 10:44 AM UTC

claudeganon wrote: post #311

codedokode wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it should be skilled, talented workers who should live in a place without public transport, buy expensive cars and gasoline and spend hours in traffic jams?

No. Cities should be invested in and planned to make themselves affordable and accommodating to all of the labor they need to exist, instead of “skilled, talented workers” shoving off all of the misery onto lower wage workers just because they can get away with it. It’s not zero sum. Look at cities in developed countries like Japan, Austria, Singapore, or the less Capitalist parts of Europe.

Nonsense. Japan is doing a good job at expending housing because they actually have a capitalistic approch to expention of houses in large cities. Its easy and cheap to build more buildings. The exact thing all of these socialist style regulations depress and systematically restrict.

And their is ZERO evidence that 'less capitalistc' parts of Europe do a better job. For the most part those parts are cheaper because nobody wants to live their and the population moves to the more capitalistic parts and that's why prices are going up there.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#534

Post by PavlovsCat » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 11:34 AM UTC

bpfrh wrote: post #305

2T1Qka0rEiPr wrote: post #22

As much as I can sympathise with the predicament, this decision, and the Berlin housing market in general, absolutely baffles me. When I moved here I was warned of 100 people turning up to a flat viewing, and laughed it off as some hyperbole. Only later did I find out that it actually happens , albeit the maximum viewing I went to was around a meagre 50. Having come from the UK, I found the situation in Berlin to be…

While it is true, that there are simply not enough apartments the rest of your argument is wrong. In berlin, the rent limits don't work, because of various reasons, one for example is that companies simply rise the costs that are not rent for appartment, force the people living there out and then raise the rent. The rent limit is not the only thing that has to be done but it is a step in the right direction. I always…

> Homes are not up for speculation and profit and they should never have been.

Amen. Here's a bit by Stewart Lee that I consider more insightful than funny:

> Basically, what's happened is, somewhere along the line, as a society, we confused the notion of home with the possibility of an investment opportunity. What kind of creature wants to live in an investment opportunity? Only man. The fox has his den, the bee has his hive, the stoat has a a stoat hole. But only man, ladies and gentlemen, the worst animal of all, chooses to make his nest in an investment opportunity. Mmm, snuggle down in the lovely credit. All warm in the mortgage payment.

> Mmm! But home is not the same thing as an investment opportunity. Home is a basic requirement of life, like food.

> When a hamster hides hamster food in his hamster cheeks, he doesn't keep it there in the hope that it will rise in value. And when a squirrel hides a nut, he's not trying to play the acorn market. And having eaten the nut, he doesn't keep the shell in the hope of setting up a lucrative sideline making tiny hats for elves. And when a dog buries a bone, he doesn't keep that bone buried until the point where it's reached its maximum market value. He digs it up when he's hungry.

> And if estate agents were dogs burying bones, not only would they leave those bones buried until they'd reached their maximum market value, but they'd run around starting rumours about imminent increases in the price of bones in the hope of driving up the market, and they'd invite loads of boneless dogs to all view the bone at the same time in the hope of giving the impression there was a massive demand for bones. And they would photograph the bone in such a way as to make it look much more juicy than it really was, airbrushing out the maggots and cropping the rotten meat.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#535

Post by oytis » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 11:59 AM UTC

People are bringing in the supply-demand curve from their school economy classes. The problem is it doesn't work that way with housing. There is zero incentive to build affordable housing when you can build a luxury house. On the contrary, landlords in Berlin "renovate" all the time, to make normal apartments into luxury ones.

So without regulation, the supply for affordable housing is diminishing. To increase the supply and reduce the prices, one needs regulation. Without all efforts to reduce prices by giving landlords the opportunity to build more affordable houses will be wasted. They don't want this opportunity, they need as much money from each square meter as they can get.

I am all for building more where there is space, it just needs to come with some regulation. That is, a certain quota of social housing in each building, prohibit meaningless renovations, make it less attractive to use property as an investment.

Rent freeze does some of this. It lets people stay in their house, preventing further gentrifying districts (which would lead to further rise in prices in a kind of a positive feedback loop). And what is important, it makes property in Berlin much less attractive of an investment, because nobody knows what else to expect from the senate (even expropriations are discussed).

I don't expect it to solve the problem completely, but it will definitely slow down its progression.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#536

Post by v7p1Qbt1im » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 12:06 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #309

zanny wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every western nation has systemically failed to recognize or support the insanely high demand for high density living in the 21st century. That is where the future of economics is, where the future of humanity in general pretty much is, and every democracy is consistently demonstrating the total inability for legislatures to sacrifice the advantage of those lucky enough to inhabit cities as they exist now…

I don't buy any of this. Growing up everyone around me saw the city as somewhere you begrudgingly went out of necessity and only lived there if you had no choice, and I'm inclined to agree. In virtually every aspect I find more countryside-ish living much more pleasant. Consider virtual reality and remote work. I imagine much of the workforce will move to virtual offices in the near to medium-far future when corporat…

I was living in Berlin in 2015/2016 and believe me in no way at all are people coming here begrudgingly. Pretty much everyone between 20 and 35 wants to live here. And I can't blame them. I wanted to go and I still love the city to bits. There is nothing you can't to there. Tons of very interesting people to collaborate on projects with. Extremely good food and cultural attractions. Pretty much the most progressive place I've ever come across. Easily the best nightlife in the world.

This sounds like a love letter I suppose and I realize you were talking about cities in general. But anyway, I can understand why everyone wants go there.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#537

Post by camgunz » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 12:14 PM UTC

tarsinge wrote: post #484

zanny wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every western nation has systemically failed to recognize or support the insanely high demand for high density living in the 21st century. That is where the future of economics is, where the future of humanity in general pretty much is, and every democracy is consistently demonstrating the total inability for legislatures to sacrifice the advantage of those lucky enough to inhabit cities as they exist now…

Because the root cause is not always high demand, it’s also speculation. Real Estate is now cool again (just look at investing forums or subreddits), and foreign investor money is flowing. Look for example at Portland (OR) how the rent increase correlates with the population increase. The current urban hype alone can not explain these numbers. Also another example since a few years a lot of high earning people in Par…

I would give you 10 upvotes if I could. The main reason for rent (and housing prices in general) increases is speculation and investment. There is billions of dollars in rentals and mortgages, and it's in everyone's interest that real estate worth goes up... unless you're trying to rent an apartment or buy a house.

Someone pretty smart once said you can't have both real estate as an infinitely increasing source of wealth _and_ affordable housing at the same time. You only get to pick one.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#538

Post by levosmetalo » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 12:25 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #518

BowBun wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, there's something utopian about what you describe. If the city doesn't have housing for everyone, why should the rich get it first? Leave capitalism at the door, we're talking about a roof over your head for janitors vs. business executives. If an 'ideal' free market means the rich get the houses and the poor are on the street, because developers don't have motivation to build, then I'm happy to see eve…

The rich, as always, have options that aren’t available to the poor. In the case of Berlin, it is surrounded by Brandenburg. Brandenburg is extremely cheap, and one could easily live there officially (but in practice only on weekends) and only spend weekdays in the city, perhaps in a hotel (the price difference of weekend home in Brandenburg plus hotel in Berlin vs. anything in SanFran makes this look sane). Or you c…

Sorry, but comparing prices in Berlin and San Fran without comparing salaries doesn't make any sense. Average "rich" manager in Berlin would make like 40k after taxes which is more comparable to the janitor than a manager in SF.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#539

Post by levosmetalo » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 12:37 PM UTC

bpfrh wrote: post #305

2T1Qka0rEiPr wrote: post #22

As much as I can sympathise with the predicament, this decision, and the Berlin housing market in general, absolutely baffles me. When I moved here I was warned of 100 people turning up to a flat viewing, and laughed it off as some hyperbole. Only later did I find out that it actually happens , albeit the maximum viewing I went to was around a meagre 50. Having come from the UK, I found the situation in Berlin to be…

While it is true, that there are simply not enough apartments the rest of your argument is wrong. In berlin, the rent limits don't work, because of various reasons, one for example is that companies simply rise the costs that are not rent for appartment, force the people living there out and then raise the rent. The rent limit is not the only thing that has to be done but it is a step in the right direction. I always…

Why everyone in Germany fixates with "big investors" and fighting them?

In reality 60+% of rental apartments in Germany are actually rented by private owners, for most of them it's their retirement plan. Around 10% of German households receive some rental income. 75% of landlords have ROI of less than 1% per year, almost one half even 0 or negative.

But hey, evil landlords, evil corporations. Corporations would be just fine, someone managing 100000 apartments is much more efficient than someone managing one or two. Those small guys would be just pushed out of market, and only corporations would just buy them out in next decade or two. Then we'll have real rent problem.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#540

Post by anoncake » Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 12:43 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #524

anoncake wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know, I've always liked the "if you have money, you can buy it" part of capitalism. I, too, like it when a group a part of gets privileges.

The point is: you can become part of that group. You can't become part of the privileged group if it's some arbitrary criteria like heritage, race, gender, political opinion etc.

Although discriminating against people without talents the market values or with disabilities that reduce their earning power is more useful than racist etc. discrimination, not everyone can become part of the privileged group.