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Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

nationalgeographic.com

251–260 of 391 posts

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The note that it's an old star makes me worry though. If they're older than us, and habitable, were they inhabited? Many dwarf stars have more solar flares than our sun, while their planets are closer. Teegarden's star is supposed to be very calm right now. I have no idea if that is likely to be true over most of the past 8 billion years. The amount of water they gather may be smaller, and their closer planets may no…

>Let's say the origin of life is a million to one filter, and the successful development of sentience is another million to one filter. Those are actually pretty high odds for those two events, and the combination of those two togehter is enough to make it likely we're alone in the Milky Way. The Drake equation has 7 terms. When it was first proposed, all but the first were complete unknowns. We're just barely starti…

We should be able to make some approximations regarding sentience. If we only consider Homo Sapiens Sapiens, then yeah we only have one data point. If we consider other extinct hominid species, we have more. If we consider dolphins, ravens, etc - we start to have a fuller picture and can make some (at least slightly) informed estimates to that term

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the oldest surface land, but the oldest crust is 4.4 billion years in Australia, and there are other places with less-old-but-still-billions crust. Natural erosion in those areas exposes extensive history, and we can dig too. [1]: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/02/140224-olde...

Surface land (current or former) is the only really relevant source of potential evidence here, though (unless we're specifically looking for subterranean civilizations, or perhaps for remains of old mines or wells).

Surface land is a bit of a misnomer here. While the crust is 4.4B years old in Australia, that doesn't mean all 4.4B years are sub-surface. The top surface there is new, but there are exposed areas going back billions of years. This is how all fossils are found; the oldest surface is the 1.8M Negev desert, but we constantly find 300M year old dinosaurs sticking out of the sides of river valleys and other eroded areas. My point is that we'd also find evidence of a billion-year-old advanced civilization the same way, and that in Australia in particular, you can go all the way back to the formation of the planet.

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#253
post #237
post #128

And to think that there is likely an Easy Mode system out there. A habitable planet on the low end of the mass spectrum needed for a stable atmosphere with other habitable planets in-system. And all that close to another star with habitable planets, possibly in the sub-lightyear range. Basically everything ripe for a spacefaring civilization to grow without too much trouble and with plenty of motivation. The Earth is…

Maybe the Great Filter is real and screwing up a system is as easy as screwing up a planet ;)

...why the winky face?

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#254

I saw a study recently, unfortunately I can't locate it now. It discussed the possibility of there having been past civilizations on Earth, hundreds of millions or even billions of years ago. The conclusion was that this can't be entirely ruled out. It noted how few actual fossil remains we have for what we know of dinosaurs, and that there's a lot of space left in those gaps for all the evidence to have been destroy…

I am not a geologist, but it seems improbable for a technical civilization (like our current one) to not leave a global geological mark. For example, our use of fossil fuels changed global carbon isotope composition: our atmosphere now has less portion of C13, because photosynthesis favors the lighter C12 atoms, and all our fossil fuels ultimately derives from photosynthesis.[1]

The changed isotope ratio will be detectable in every carbon-containing sediment layer ever produced in our age. And this is just one example.

[1] https://skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=109

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#255
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we had the political will It takes more than that. We need political maturity and stability. There is no way we can send people today on a 200 years journey and be sure they will both make it and be able to create a somewhat stable society on the other side. Also, that would be a earth level effort, another thing that is seriously irrealistic right now. The very best we can achieve right now is the ISS and that'…

Would a vessel from 50 years from now beat the original crew there? If we assume we are advancing speed-wise by X% each year, the poor folks sent and likely put into cryo-stasis would get lapped by people who left 10 years or 25 years after them.

There are a number of SF stories where this is the plot.

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#256
post #147

"just 12 light-years away" I love the "just". I know it's nearby on galactic scales but it's practically about 450,000 Earth years away with current technology :-)

To give a sense of the scales involved - if the sun were an orange and the earth a grain of sand 6 meters away, this star would be a pea about 5000km away. There would only be another 34 stars / fruit-and-veg within this 10000km wide sphere. It's pretty empty out there!

I’m amazed that the specks on the grain of sand can even be aware of the pea that’s 5000km away in the first place.

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we know that intelligent life is an evolutionary inevitability? Most of these discussions seem to assume that it is, but I haven't read any biologists mention this.

What we can infer from the gradual evolution of various species on Earth is that brains do seem to evolve larger, more complex, more efficient - though are often bottlenecked by other costs. If you look at a snapshot of all life on Earth over tens of millions of years, the average brain size of dominant species has clearly increased.

Tens of millions of years is a pretty small snapshot to use. Brains have existed on earth for approximately 500 million years. Life for about 7 times that.

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#258
post #107

The note that it's an old star makes me worry though. If they're older then us, and habitable, were they inhabited? Our current era is a few hundred years of real, directed technological development. A few thousands years either side of that and who knows what we'd be looking at, but you imagine that - hopefully - the general progression of technology is forward. So if they were inhabited, what happened to them? Are…

in view of what you're asking about the development of technology, and whether or not civs tend to "peak out" around our current level, i think back to the drake equation* and the coefficients for the likelihood of intelligence evolving and the likelihood of intelligent life creating technology that emits detectable signs of that civilization (space infrastructure, dyson swarms, nuclear isotopes in atmosphere , etc). Those 2 being Fi and Fc.

Id like to share whata I think is one of the cheeriest possibilities:

- that earth-like planets are rather common (we have 3 such planets in the Sol system),

- basic life is less common but still pretty common (decent chance mars could have had life, maybe europa's sub-ice oceans has it now... conceivable at least),

- but what isnt super common is the development of human-level intelligence, and even less common is developing technology to the point we are currently at

- but (and this is the most cheery part) even though human-level intelligence and our current tech level is very uncommon, that once a species develops that level of tech, barring a catastrophic extinction event (DNA-hyper-plauge, mega-asteroid, all the nukes getting launched at once), that that life is likely to continue for a long time.

I say that last part because even with our current problems with the Anthropocene extinction and climate degradation, it's likely that humans will be here in 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 years.

Worst case could be even be so bad as humanity entering its first ever world-wide dark age (as opposed to regional dark ages) where higher technology is less prolific and more concentrated. Even given something like that that - which i think is neither a certainty or even a reasonable conception of the future - humanity would continue and 10 generations on our decedents would start something akin to a second Renaissance.

So what I'm getting at is once a civilization develops roughly our level of technology, it may be very durable even in the face of temporary disasters and darkness.

Now, as far as the fancy space tech you bring up, yeah, who knows... It seems like those tech have a big issue beyond Physics, which is the Fermi Paradox.

If say, Dyson Swarms were "possible" (they really seem like they should be... we could start building one now), then we should be seeing evidence of that all over the universe from those civs who've come before us and build them. That's scary to think about, that maybe we're the first life to get to this level in the universe. Then again, maybe advanced civs learn early to obfuscate the signs of their existence, or perhaps even use technology that we don't recognize / cant detect.

A great Youtuber named Isaac Arthur talks about both the drake equation and the futurist's existential bummer about the Fermi Paradox. Check him out if anything i bring up here sounds cool.

*Drake Equation is a simple(ish) way of plotting out how likely / many adv civs are out there based on the likleyhood of some conditions. From wiki - The Drake equation is:

    N = R ∗ ⋅ f p ⋅ n e ⋅ f l ⋅ f i ⋅ f c ⋅ L 
where:

    N = the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which communication might be possible (i.e. which are on our current past light cone);
and

    R∗ = the average rate of star formation in our galaxy
    fp = the fraction of those stars that have planets
    ne = the average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets
    fl = the fraction of planets that could support life that actually develop life at some point
    fi = the fraction of planets with life that actually go on to develop intelligent life (civilizations)
    fc = the fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space
    L = the length of time for which such civilizations release detectable signals into space[
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#259

The trilogy _Three Body Problem_ is a good read, and has something to say about this. :)

The concept of the dark forest is pretty interesting for sure. Do we really want to be announcing to the galaxy our presence where malevolent alien species may be present. If they have developed technologically even just a couple hundred or couple thousand years ahead of us we'd be easy pickings.

Greg Bear's The Forge of God explores exactly this issue, as does the sequel Anvil of Stars.

Re: Two potentially life-friendly planets found orbiting a nearby star

#260
By the time our technology reaches the point that we could feasibly travel to and inhabit another distant planet, and with all the challenges with that (space travel, terraforming, radiation protection), couldn't we feasibly create or move a planet or gigantic space station built from materials of another planet into whatever orbit we want?
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