Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#211

Post by esarbe » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

Vinnl wrote: post #141

motivated_gear wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been tried before in a number of different flavors. Most leave people worse off. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-01-18/yup-re...

Thanks, I hadn't realised that obviously existing landlords might stop renting out a place, which would reduce supply of housing - that could be problematic. It also mentions that apartments got transformed into condos. This might be a problem with my not being a native speaker, but: if one apartment is turned into multiple condos, isn't it able to house more people? (Though being "new" housing, I suppose they'd then…

Since there's already some effort to confiscate property that's been empty for too long, I doubt too many landladies in Berlin will dare to go that route.

I could be wrong.

Relevant article: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-housing/berlin-ac...

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#212

Post by asokoloski » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

bpfrh wrote: post #154

vtail wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People buying apartments to rent out via Airbnb is not inherently a bad thing - it just indicates there is existing unsatisfied demand for short term rentals, which cannot be fulfilled by hotel industry. And guess what - hotel industry is another example of an industry heavily regulated by government (zoning laws, construction permits etc.). So the Airbnb problem most likely has the same underlying root cause.

No it is an indication that people are cheap and a person who bought a apartment as an investment now makes 30-60€ a night vs about 600 a month. There is a reason hotels are expensive. Airbnb does the same as uber. They start a business with either exploits a loophole or is illegal. Btw. at least in austria, if you want to rent your apartment on such a plattform you have to clear it with everyone who lives in that ho…

Yes, there's a big difference between someone who rents out their apartment using Airbnb because they're away half the year, or has a spare room that they rent out, and someone who buys an entire building of 20 apartments and turns it into a hotel in all but name, skirting around all the consumer protections and regulations that have been put into place around hotels.

You can argue that the regulation of hotel-style Airbnb use is too lenient, or the regulation on real hotels is too onerous, but I don't know of any good argument that they should be treated differently.

Sorting this out would either lead to reduced demand for apartments to use with Airbnb as it becomes less attractive to large-scale landlords, or lead to greater demand of land for hotel usage.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#213

Post by coldtea » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

vtail wrote: post #3

As a person born and raised in Soviet Union, I strongly believe that whoever thinks that a proper economic response to raising prices is literally to order them to stop raising , is a lunatic.

And as a person born in the west, ordering prices to stop raising is a useful and often necessary tool in the economic policy toolkit.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#214

Post by welterde » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:35 PM UTC

looperhacks wrote: post #121

TomK32 wrote: post #24

At the same time german tax office will give you trouble if you don't make enough profit as a landlord.

Source? Btw, landlords will be able to apply for excemptions, if it is necessary.

Here is an article about such a case from Munich (in German): https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/zu-nett-fuer-muenchen-der-ver...

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#215

Post by dymk » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:36 PM UTC

supergauntlet wrote: post #174

a_c_s wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people do not need to profit from housing to build it People do need to profit from something to do it in a capitalist society.

Housing is not a market that should be governed by capitalism. I honestly don't care if the ultra-rich trade 30 million dollar homes and speculate on their value, but the fact that homelessness is even a problem in the first world is a travesty. Our children will look back upon a time when there were 6 (SIX!) empty homes for every homeless person in the United States and weep. Obviously those homes aren't all where t…

Homelessness is a problem of addiction and mental illness. Cheap highly regulated housing in the middle of expensive cities don't fix that.

Social workers and detox programs help, but there is no easy fix (other than "finance their life") for people who can't kick a drug habit, or are mentally incapable of holding down a job.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#216

Post by mafribe » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

bpfrh wrote: post #164

vtail wrote: post #3

As a person born and raised in Soviet Union, I strongly believe that whoever thinks that a proper economic response to raising prices is literally to order them to stop raising , is a lunatic.

As a person living in austria, I strongly believe that goverment build housing and strong regulation of pricing and the market is the only way to keep housing affordable for all people and not make it a speculation object like in germany/berlin. Did you know that in the late 90 the housing was good and affordable? And that a big chunk was owned by the city or state? That these things were then sold for pennies, to co…

    goverment build housing

Berlin government is not building housing in meaningful quantities to keep up with demand. You can look at BER (the airport that was supposed to open in 2012) to get an appreciation for how dysfunctional Berlin's regional government is.

Berlin's NIMBY population is also to blame, they voted against developing former Tempelhof airport [1]. It would have been easy to erect dwellings for > 10k people there.

The rent-freeze is populist political action to cover up government inability, and redirect anger away from the root cause of the problem (Berlin's government) towards scapegoats. Freezing rent will not create a single new dwelling, indeed it will reduce incentives from building property.

[1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksentscheid_zum_Tempelhofer...

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#217

Post by pure_ambition » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

I think most people with an understanding of economics would agree that more supply is needed. The problem is, zoning laws are made by the cities themselves, which means they are ultimately made by the people who already live there. People who already live there don't want their neighborhoods bulldozed for luxury high rises, which is what happens when zoning is abolished.

Then, there is the problem of the suburbs. A lot of people suggest moving to the suburbs and embracing a longer commute as the solution. The problem is, suburbs also control their own zoning laws, just like cities, and surprise - they also don't want their neighborhoods bulldozed for luxury apartments.

So the problem is essentially a power issue - who holds the power? Without the political power to make zoning changes, little new housing will be built. I don't see a solution here. So it seems that the local people embrace rent control as the best possible solution among alternatives. Viewed from that perspective, it's not so bad after all. The city's residents will feel the impacts, and if it's not working out, they will eventually repeal the law. Big deal.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#218

Post by bobthepanda » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:37 PM UTC

jupp0r wrote: post #182

bobthepanda wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who disagree with rent control largely disagree with the goals, which is to keep existing residents where they are. It’s effective at that until landlords abuse the loopholes, which you have to keep closing through legislative whack-a-mole.

> People who disagree with rent control largely disagree with the goals, which is to keep existing residents where they are. You could also phrase that as making it hard for people to move in, making it hard for young families to stay in their neighborhood when their housing needs increase, making it hard for older people to downsize. It's really benefitting the residents who are lucky enough to already be in an apar…

I'm not disputing that those things happen, but those are second-order effects which nobody advocating really cares about at the time of creation of regulation, they're certainly not maliciously advocating for any of that (at least the latter two points).

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#219

Post by codedokode » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

usefulcat wrote: post #4

Symptom: rents are too high Cause: insufficient housing supply Solution: disincentivize new construction?

It might be not so simple. The prices are high in some places (like city center or places with good transportation access) because everyone wants to live there. You can build new houses in other places with poor transportation, but nobody will want to live there.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#220

Post by CPLX » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:38 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #176

CPLX wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct. Or said another way, if you have strong ties to the city and/or are a longtime resident of the neighborhood you win, if you don't you lose.

> Or said another way, if you have strong ties to the city and/or are a longtime resident of the neighborhood you win, if you don't you lose. This has literally nothing to do with who ends up in a rent stabilized apartment. In fact, new residents are more likely to end up in rent stabilized apartments than existing residents, so rent stabilization has the exact opposite effect of what you're describing it does.

> new residents are more likely to end up in rent stabilized apartments than existing residents

Citation needed on that one.