Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze • Hacker News Board

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#191

Post by linuxftw » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

bpfrh wrote: post #164

vtail wrote: post #3

As a person born and raised in Soviet Union, I strongly believe that whoever thinks that a proper economic response to raising prices is literally to order them to stop raising , is a lunatic.

As a person living in austria, I strongly believe that goverment build housing and strong regulation of pricing and the market is the only way to keep housing affordable for all people and not make it a speculation object like in germany/berlin. Did you know that in the late 90 the housing was good and affordable? And that a big chunk was owned by the city or state? That these things were then sold for pennies, to co…

> Did you know that in the late 90 the housing was good and affordable?

Obviously, affordable is subjective. People in cities have demanded ever-expanding services. Better sanitation, better public transit, electricity, everything new has to be super safe, everything new has to have 16 handi-capable toilets per 1 handi-capable user, subsidized housing for the poor, free education, free higher education, free healthcare, higher taxes on businesses, higher regulation of existing businesses.

Some of those things are probably necessary. Some are probably really nice to have. Everything has a price. Rent control is a great way to make slums. There's no market incentive to make your placer any nicer than someone else's because you're competing for a set amount of $$. The good landlords will exit the business, and you'll only have slums.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#192

Post by andrewmutz » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

2tab wrote: post #184

jupp0r wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they just declared housing to be affordable (in the $20/month ballpark region) and people had to apply 10 years in advance to move to a larger apartment. This is my parent's experience in east Germany, should be similar to Soviet Union.

The curios thing about these anecdotes is that as dysfunctional as somewhere like the Soviet Union was, getting a affordable apartment in only 10 years would be a great deal for many today. In many metro areas property values have increased more the savings from the median income, meaning that the application, or aspiration, of the majority of people is going in reverse.

It would be a shame to have to pass on any job that required relocation for 10 years.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#193

Post by hobofan » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

xxxpupugo wrote: post #57

Seems like only going to create a black market, or funnel the rent in other ways.

Probably not worse than the one that already exists. There are a lot of people illegally subletting their apartments for 2-3x their original rent.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#194

Post by tathougies » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #43

vtail wrote: post #3

As a person born and raised in Soviet Union, I strongly believe that whoever thinks that a proper economic response to raising prices is literally to order them to stop raising , is a lunatic.

As a person living in New York who thinks rent stabilization has been largely more successful than not at achieving its goals, I disagree.

Of course residents love rent stabilization. They like it for the same reason the rich enjoy greater returns on wealth. Rent control makes housing disproportionately cheap for those currently living in the city and disproportionately expensive or unavailable for those seeking to move in or youth seeking to move to their own place. In effect, it's a tax on the young and the migrant to subsidize the older, richer, and more entrenched.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#195

Post by rhinoceraptor » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

jbullock35 wrote: post #161

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who looks at regulations like this and sees the Soviet Union is themselves a lunatic. This is not a planned economy, and people do not need to profit from housing to build it, and housing should be a human right.

> people do not need to profit from housing to build it Yes, I'm sure that you volunteer your services to build new housing all the time.

Not just your services, you also have to take out a 7 figure loan to invest in the project.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#196

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #110

urda wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it doesn't work, and has been proven to not actually work.

I read some version of this sentence every time the topic comes up. Like it's just "proven" not to work, as if there's some kind of objective science that exists independently of values and assumptions. Rent stabilization is intended to keep permanent residents of the apartments in question from being forced to move by rent increases. It does exactly that thing.

[deleted]

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#197

Post by cheerlessbog » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

supergauntlet wrote: post #174

a_c_s wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people do not need to profit from housing to build it People do need to profit from something to do it in a capitalist society.

Housing is not a market that should be governed by capitalism. I honestly don't care if the ultra-rich trade 30 million dollar homes and speculate on their value, but the fact that homelessness is even a problem in the first world is a travesty. Our children will look back upon a time when there were 6 (SIX!) empty homes for every homeless person in the United States and weep. Obviously those homes aren't all where t…

As I understand it, homelessness has more complex causes than simply not having access to affordable housing.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#198

Post by Rebelgecko » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #178

Rebelgecko wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, I know multiple people that have turned down better paying (and arguably better for society) jobs because they would have to move but don't want to give up on their current rent-controlled apartment. What seems to always end up happening is that new residents subsidize the rent controlled ones, which creates this weird lock-in dynamic because people can't afford to move into equivalent housing literally…

> What seems to always end up happening is that new residents subsidize the rent controlled ones Not really. It's landlords that subsidize rent controlled tenants. The system is redistributive. The value that would have gone to landlords in an increasing rent environment goes to the tenant instead. Theoretically it can distort the market, provide disincentives to building housing, etc etc. But those are second order…

> It's landlords that subsidize rent controlled tenants.

Are there any studies showing the extent to which that is true? I would be curious to see what fraction of the rent control is paid for by landlords vs new tenants. My intuition would be that rent control reduces the supply of market-value housing, which would lead to prices increasing even more (even before you take into account a landlord wanting to compensate for the money they're not making from rent controlled apartments).

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#199

Post by krastanov » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

jbullock35 wrote: post #161

SomeOldThrow wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who looks at regulations like this and sees the Soviet Union is themselves a lunatic. This is not a planned economy, and people do not need to profit from housing to build it, and housing should be a human right.

> people do not need to profit from housing to build it Yes, I'm sure that you volunteer your services to build new housing all the time.

Many of us actually volunteer our services for social good all the time (not construction in my case, but people do that too). This should be celebrated and even expected from people, not met with incredulity and snark.

And please do not twist the words of OP. The whole point of a democratic government / social contract (at least on paper) is to have a communal entity deal with this stuff when there are not enough volunteers.

Re: Berlin approves 5-year rent freeze

#200

Post by cowwithbeef » Tue, Jun 18, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

CPLX wrote: post #170

bko wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also note that it promotes illegal behavior as people who are lucky enough will often illegally sublet the home at the market price.

All laws that prevent people from doing something they want to do promote illegal behavior by this definition.

Yes this is an inherent flaw in laws. They benefit those who get away with breaking them.