Live data from Hacker News

$1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

blog.google

181–190 of 547 posts

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#181

Personally this class of things really highlights an imbalance for me. Consider that Google runs its own own bus service for employees, and now is building housing for the same. Traditionally, successful businesses in a region paid taxes, and those taxes were used by the local governments to invest in infrastructure like public transport and urban development. So in this regard Google usurps the mandate of the commun…

>So in this regard Google usurps the mandate of the community government

Great. The mandate of community government has created $3400 / month two bedroom apartments and I, for one, welcome some additional housing units.

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're getting downvoted - it's the argument from NIMBY's that keeps getting pushed aside and needs to be properly addressed if this issue will ever get resolved. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: you don't have to live in California. For $1B, you could probably build enough houses for every single Google employee in a place like Detroit, or most other states (Arizona? Nevada? Colorado? etc. e…

> it's the argument from NIMBY's that keeps getting pushed aside It gets pushed aside because it's a bad argument, and it's often asked in bad faith. "Hubs" for various industries pop up all the time. Hollywood for movies, NYC for finance, etc. There are very real advantages to the strong ecosystems created by gathering so many specialists in a single area, both for companies AND for workers; working for Google makin…

”Hubs" for various industries pop up all the time. Hollywood for movies

I think you just argued against your point. A lot of blockbuster movies and popular TV shows are being shot in other places because other places are cheaper and they offer better incentives.

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#183

It's great that Google wants to increase housing, but is this really going to work? The housing shortage in the Bay Area is not a money problem. If it were possible to build 20,000 houses in the next 20 years, it would absolutely happen without Google's help. The problem with housing there has one simple cause: NIMBYism. SF doesn't want to allow taller buildings and denser housing complexes. It's vastly worse in the…

> The only solution is changing the zoning laws

What about pulling a HongKong / Singapore: Create a special economic zone that is a stand-alone municipality with extremely lax zoning laws to spur housing & transportation growth?

Google is kinda-sorta doing this. To avoid Mountain View NIMBYism, just carve out the Google land for this purpose.

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#184
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To many developers in "smaller" tech cities, that's nearly 20% of their pre-tax salary.

The difference housing cost as a percentage of the small tech city salary is an irrelevant statistic. The relevant statistic to compare is actual housing cost vs actual compensation in both types of places. For many types of tech jobs, the number still favors big cities, if not in percentage terms, then in absolute numbers. And when it comes down to a real life decision, there are plenty of other factors (financial o…

My point was "only $12,000" sounds very ivory tower and tone-deaf to people for which $12,000 is an awful lot of money.

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#185

Here is a buisnes idea Ive been thinking about lately for SF, Hong Kong, NY and other expensive places. Buy a smaller cruise ships and rent a pier to dock it. I found a newly renovated ship with 72 cabins for 5.8 million. With the average rent in SF that ship has paid for itself in 2 years (yes there will be additional costs, but back of a napkin, its a good start). Then buy more ships and stack them. Renovate/remode…

This is the best worst idea I've ever heard. A lot of the offices (Google) are along the water, so the commute could be pretty ideal.

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's the argument from NIMBY's that keeps getting pushed aside It gets pushed aside because it's a bad argument, and it's often asked in bad faith. "Hubs" for various industries pop up all the time. Hollywood for movies, NYC for finance, etc. There are very real advantages to the strong ecosystems created by gathering so many specialists in a single area, both for companies AND for workers; working for Google makin…

”Hubs" for various industries pop up all the time. Hollywood for movies I think you just argued against your point. A lot of blockbuster movies and popular TV shows are being shot in other places because other places are cheaper and they offer better incentives.

And there are already a lot of programmers who aren't in the bay area. That's fine. That there are cheaper options available that many take advantage of doesn't change the fact that LA is still the center of the movie world (at least for American movies), and SF/SV is the center of the software/internet world, with many choosing to locate in those places despite the higher absolute costs.

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#187

Bay area voters have made their intentions abundantly clear, in numerous elections and voting: they don't want growth. So much so, that local politicians even brag about how much housing developments they've stopped. Why fight such a huge uphill battle in trying to get housing in the Bay area? Wouldn't it be easier to start from a city or town outside of CA? or at least outside the bay area? Maybe somewhere in the mi…

Every time we get heavy rains which seems to occur more often these days, there are several slides in the open space above Woodside and some roads are unpassable for weeks or years in the case of the last slides on Skyline Drive and West Old La Honda. Evidence of how slide prone the area is is abundant on even gentle trails in every park along the ridge as well. Most of the housing currently there all the way to the coast subsists on well water and cisterns and use septic tanks for sewage until the flat areas, in the drought last year many wells ran dry. None of this scales up. It's not like the Oakland Hills where the East Bay water district supports the area. Crystal Springs reservoir and the basin that drains into it visible along 280 all the way to Woodside is reserved for the city of San Francisco water company which may not be obvious to a casual observer.

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#188

It's great that Google wants to increase housing, but is this really going to work? The housing shortage in the Bay Area is not a money problem. If it were possible to build 20,000 houses in the next 20 years, it would absolutely happen without Google's help. The problem with housing there has one simple cause: NIMBYism. SF doesn't want to allow taller buildings and denser housing complexes. It's vastly worse in the…

If they use part of the money to lobby local governments to remove these regulations, it might work.

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#189

Here is a buisnes idea Ive been thinking about lately for SF, Hong Kong, NY and other expensive places. Buy a smaller cruise ships and rent a pier to dock it. I found a newly renovated ship with 72 cabins for 5.8 million. With the average rent in SF that ship has paid for itself in 2 years (yes there will be additional costs, but back of a napkin, its a good start). Then buy more ships and stack them. Renovate/remode…

In addition to all the other problems, you may need to be a US-flagged and US-built vessel depending on how exactly your dock based cruise interacts with the 1920 Jones Act's restrictions on cabotage. Requiring a US built ship may significantly increase your costs.

Re: $1B for 20,000 Bay Area homes

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you're getting downvoted - it's the argument from NIMBY's that keeps getting pushed aside and needs to be properly addressed if this issue will ever get resolved. I've said it before, but it bears repeating: you don't have to live in California. For $1B, you could probably build enough houses for every single Google employee in a place like Detroit, or most other states (Arizona? Nevada? Colorado? etc. e…

> it's the argument from NIMBY's that keeps getting pushed aside It gets pushed aside because it's a bad argument, and it's often asked in bad faith. "Hubs" for various industries pop up all the time. Hollywood for movies, NYC for finance, etc. There are very real advantages to the strong ecosystems created by gathering so many specialists in a single area, both for companies AND for workers; working for Google makin…

I wouldn't call it a bad argument, as it's rooted in rational economics - which is also why it's unfair to call it "bad faith."

The ecosystem of tech is partly built upon the idea of decentralization - as long as you can connect to the internet, you should be able to do what you need to do from anywhere. Otherwise tools like "video conferencing software" would tank quickly, as we might as well just fly to visit everyone we need to meet, right?

If you as an employee want to price in the substitutability of your job search as the demand side of the market, fine - as a homeowner, I would recognize that inelasticity and price my rent accordingly. There is no "bad faith" there - just rational economics, where one market understands that the other refuses to correct itself.

A "Google Salary" doesn't mean anything if you take home a small fraction of it, and what's left is eaten up by higher prices of the same goods; anywhere else, you can take home more, and those remaining $dollars can get you more. It's at the point now where I recommend to my employees / friends / colleagues that they shouldn't move to the valley unless they're getting 2.5x their salary, as that _might_ get you the same standard of living vs. our current spot.

Now I don't live in the Valley, but I somewhat empathize with the homeowners argument to _some_ extent: It's not necessarily classist or anti-environment for homeowners in a community, who _own_ the land, to band together and dictate what should go on in that community: how it should look, what would be the best for their investment, etc. And the point that talks past them is "this pushes people out to metros." The easy response is: it only pushes those out to metros _who feel like they have to live there._ Otherwise you price that into your decision to move there along with all the other factors at play.

Post reply on HN