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Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

theatlantic.com

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Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#31

Post by rags2riches »

Causality1 wrote: post #23
sunstone wrote: post #12

I wouldn't be surprised if humans haven't changed too since dogs befriended them. I imagine it's really a symbiotic relationship in the wild. Both are social animals. Dogs have the speed and the teeth. Humans have the brain power, stone throwing and cooking. Dogs can mind the human young to a large extent and humans can feed the baby dogs cooked food. It's win win and a fearsome combination.

It would be interesting to look for genetic differences between human populations with a history of intensive domestication like the Maasai and populations that have no or only recent domestication like aboriginal Australians.

Adults that can digest lactose is one trait obviously related to animal husbandry.

Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#32

Post by hoseja »

mattlondon wrote: post #28

The article (and others at e.g. the BBC) seem to say dogs "evolved" this capability in "a remarkably short time". Is it not fairer to suggest that this is not evolution/natural selection at work here, but rather just selective breeding? I can't think of another species of animal that has been so widely twisted and manipulated in appearance by human's selective breeding than dogs. Seems odd to suggest that this part o…

What else is selective breeding than evolution where fitness is strongly influenced by a hairless ape?

Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#33

Post by NeedMoreTea »

mattlondon wrote: post #28

The article (and others at e.g. the BBC) seem to say dogs "evolved" this capability in "a remarkably short time". Is it not fairer to suggest that this is not evolution/natural selection at work here, but rather just selective breeding? I can't think of another species of animal that has been so widely twisted and manipulated in appearance by human's selective breeding than dogs. Seems odd to suggest that this part o…

I'm mostly comfortable with thinking it's evolution as crazy variety and selective breeding came very late to the party. Most in the last few hundred years - lots of the breeds we know are from the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.

I would guess that for most of our co-existence breeding was up to the dog to figure out, which might explain the oldest breeds being of a particular region. Task breeds came very much later.

Edit: Also, how do you selectively breed for muscles that didn't previously exist?

Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#34

Post by miahi »

Joakal wrote: post #26

This is a good opportunity to educate the general [HN] community about dogs: 1. They can only see blue/yellow. Not like humans' RGB. 2. They are short sighted. For far away objects, their sight is like a T-Rex, they can see moving objects, not stationary objects. Remain still, and they can't see you. Then again, they can smell you, especially if it's downwind. 3. Their flicker fusion threshold is higher than humans.…

3. The flicker fusion issue mostly applies to cathode ray displays and moving pictures. Many LCDs use flickering light (PWM) for backlight, but usually at more than 200Hz. Better LCDs use linear current sources for backlight, so there's no flicker at all. An LCD should be fine even for dogs when static images are displayed.

Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#35

Post by viscanti »

hoseja wrote: post #32
mattlondon wrote: post #28

The article (and others at e.g. the BBC) seem to say dogs "evolved" this capability in "a remarkably short time". Is it not fairer to suggest that this is not evolution/natural selection at work here, but rather just selective breeding? I can't think of another species of animal that has been so widely twisted and manipulated in appearance by human's selective breeding than dogs. Seems odd to suggest that this part o…

What else is selective breeding than evolution where fitness is strongly influenced by a hairless ape?

The article mentions that the trait is observable at only 4 weeks old. It might not be crazy to think that Humans are more likely to select the puppies that demonstrate the trait. It might not be "natural" selection, but if Humans are making a substantial amount of the breeding decisions for dogs then it could still be a form of evolution.

Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#36

Post by dunstad »

interfixus wrote: post #30
Joakal wrote: post #26

This is a good opportunity to educate the general [HN] community about dogs: 1. They can only see blue/yellow. Not like humans' RGB. 2. They are short sighted. For far away objects, their sight is like a T-Rex, they can see moving objects, not stationary objects. Remain still, and they can't see you. Then again, they can smell you, especially if it's downwind. 3. Their flicker fusion threshold is higher than humans.…

My 12 year old labrador is in excellent shape, but his hearing is no longer quite up to scratch, and to avoid embarrassing levels of shouting when we are out and about, I increasingly use pointing and other signs at my end of our communication. Also, his left eye has been problematic for many years, and apparently only registers the haziest of outlines these days. And yet, he contantly amazes me by the range and prec…

As a nearsighted human who didn't get glasses as early as he should have, I used to use people's gait or clothing to recognize them at long distances. You know your dog best, just saying there can be ways to compensate.

Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#37

Post by GorgeRonde »

onemoresoop wrote: post #18
sunstone wrote: post #12

I wouldn't be surprised if humans haven't changed too since dogs befriended them. I imagine it's really a symbiotic relationship in the wild. Both are social animals. Dogs have the speed and the teeth. Humans have the brain power, stone throwing and cooking. Dogs can mind the human young to a large extent and humans can feed the baby dogs cooked food. It's win win and a fearsome combination.

I’ve had the exact thoughts. And in fact all domesticated animals change and we change with them as well. Im not only thinking about pets but the all animals that live in (an unfair) symbiosis with humans.

I watched a documentary about domestication a while back. Turns out there are many "corollary features" to being domesticated: for instance, ears falling down are also to be found in domesticated fox.

One of the most common feature across domesticated species was tighter jaws.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Zep-GhQYU

Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#38

Post by quaa55 »

miahi wrote: post #34
Joakal wrote: post #26

This is a good opportunity to educate the general [HN] community about dogs: 1. They can only see blue/yellow. Not like humans' RGB. 2. They are short sighted. For far away objects, their sight is like a T-Rex, they can see moving objects, not stationary objects. Remain still, and they can't see you. Then again, they can smell you, especially if it's downwind. 3. Their flicker fusion threshold is higher than humans.…

3. The flicker fusion issue mostly applies to cathode ray displays and moving pictures. Many LCDs use flickering light (PWM) for backlight, but usually at more than 200Hz. Better LCDs use linear current sources for backlight, so there's no flicker at all. An LCD should be fine even for dogs when static images are displayed.

well now i’m curious, since we have a handful of LED bulbs throughout the house. they flicker no doubt, detectable through the slow motion setting on my phone camera.

any suggestions on what energy efficient bulbs to replace them with?!

Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#39

Post by interfixus »

dunstad wrote: post #36
interfixus wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 12 year old labrador is in excellent shape, but his hearing is no longer quite up to scratch, and to avoid embarrassing levels of shouting when we are out and about, I increasingly use pointing and other signs at my end of our communication. Also, his left eye has been problematic for many years, and apparently only registers the haziest of outlines these days. And yet, he contantly amazes me by the range and prec…

As a nearsighted human who didn't get glasses as early as he should have, I used to use people's gait or clothing to recognize them at long distances. You know your dog best, just saying there can be ways to compensate.

Without a doubt, yes, all sorts of compensation are at play. Still, the fact remains that he reliably picks up my relatively subdued sign language at great distance. And swimming, even in rough sea, if he can't pick out the floating stick, he'll look to me, I'll point, he will scan as directed, and head straight for the thing. One way or the other, all this is decent visual performance, nothing nearsighted about it.

Re: Dogs’ Eyes Have Changed Since Humans Befriended Them

#40

Post by jyriand »

NetOpWibby wrote: post #21
hermitdev wrote: post #5

In my experience, the dogs ive been around dont generally look sad. The totality of their facial expressions show their emotion. Ive a one year old pup, border collie/labrador mix. I can take a quick glance at his face and know exactly how he's feeling. Probably 80% of the time, its pure joy. Happy to run around, chew on toys, jump on the furniture and try and play (unrequitedly) with our cats. About another 10%, he'…

Damn, I cannot wait to have a dog.

Getting a dog should not be an emotional decision. I have a dog and sometimes it's a lot of work. Feeding, pooping, pissing, neverending fur in the house and on my clothes, vet, constant attention seeking etc. Just to mention a few things. And if you need to travel you need a babysitter for your dog. It's easier if you have a backyard where the dog can chill.
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