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The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

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Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#121

Post by CydeWeys »

lemcoe9 wrote: post #26
joelbluminator wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't a 28 American with an English major do a coding bootcamp and find an entry level job? I'm sure if he's reasonable intelligent and ambitious he can. There aren't that many h1b's around competing with him, most American jobs aren't h1b jobs.

Why is "do a coding bootcamp" the common refrain from tech workers trying to help non-tech people?

Besides "get a CS degree", what are the other alternatives? Telling people to learn how to program themselves isn't very successful; if they were the kind of person who'd do that, they'd have already done it; it's not like they were just waiting for someone to tell them to do it.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#122

Post by ThrustVectoring »

anovikov wrote: post #39

A little bit unrelated question: why are HE revolving loans so cheap, having negative CAGR? Some piece of economics i totally fail to understand.

Growth rate of the category is a different thing than internal rate of return. Negative CAGR just means that consumers are paying off or otherwise discharging the loan type at a faster rate than they're taking it out. Revolving home equity got a large amount of that wiped out in the 2008 crisis, which happened in the timeframe in question (2005-2018).

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#123

Post by harimau777 »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #3

Talking about underemployment as a problem for college graduates in general doesn’t seem very insightful to me. It seems obvious that not all degrees have problems with underemployment. So which ones do? Why are people doing those degrees? Are they under the mistaken impression that those degrees will lead to employment opportunities that don’t actually exist?

I think that you make a good point, but on the other hand it seems like the number of degrees which are "safe bets" are decreasing. For example, my understanding is that a business degree is much less likely to get you into the middle class than it used to. Similarly, I think there was a time when BS degrees in the sciences were enough to get decently paid technician jobs. Now it seems like engineering and medicine are the only degrees with a guaranteed return.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#124

Post by joyeuse6701 »

SuperPaintMan wrote: post #37
lemcoe9 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is "do a coding bootcamp" the common refrain from tech workers trying to help non-tech people?

Because tech work is magical and plentiful regardless of where you are and everyone can become a programmer /s

I do believe that if you can learn to read and write, you can learn to program.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#125

Post by ryanSrich »

war1025 wrote: post #102
michaelbrave wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of American's grew up middle class but aren't anymore, they still think of themselves as such but truly aren't. This is how most Millenials live, they are too broke to have kids, think of themselves as middle class because they grew up that way, even if in reality they aren't.

What do you consider middle class? That term is notoriously ill-defined.

- $50-$99 is lower middle

- $100-$199 is middle

- $200-$499 is upper middle

- $500-$999 is lower upper

Etc.

That’s the scale I’ve always used (household income).

Most millennials fall in the lower middle or middle bucket.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#126

Post by jrobn »

war1025 wrote: post #100
sdfsaf wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quarter? Dream on. We're living in the Midwest with an East coast salary (remote). I have no idea how other ppl here afford kids and manage to save. We spend $30k on day care and another $12k on health premiums alone.

Living in the Midwest on a Midwest salary ($85k/yr), currently 30 years old, have 3 kids, a stay at home wife, and a net worth that just peeked over $250k. Also, our work health insurance is shit, so $200 gets taken out of my paycheck each week for that, which puts it right around the $12k you mentioned. Daycare is stupid expensive. Healthcare is stupid expensive. We handle the former by having my wife stay home. The…

So you are saying if you have a non-fatal health incident then you are in serious financial trouble?

My wife and I are in the same position. We pay $209 a month for “healthcare” coverage that has a $700 yearly deductible. If either of us got sick or injuries we would be totally screwed. The US system is broken. We have massive wealth inequality, an educational system in crisis, and a toxic political system.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#127

Post by AimForTheBushes »

davidw wrote: post #116
jmpman wrote: post #9

H1B compete with the newly graduated college students. Before people say that there’s no problem with STEM graduates finding a job, I’ll counter that many of my coworkers 20 years ago didn’t have STEM degrees, and were previously English majors, business majors, etc. They were people with technical aptitude who realized they had picked a field of study that didn’t quite suit their financial aspirations. They were abl…

I'd look at our own problems rather than trying to blame immigrants, who have always been part and parcel of the US economy. Indeed, many of those companies wouldn't be around were it not for immigrants, since they not only work for companies, but also found them and of course purchase their products and services.

H1Bs are not meant for immigration. Their purpose is to fulfill a void in the highly educated work force by employing a temporary, foreign worker.

I think his point has some validity since H1Bs can replace local workers with lower paying H1B substitutes. Yes, this isn't allowed but it happens all the time.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#128

Post by babyslothzoo »

lemcoe9 wrote: post #26
joelbluminator wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't a 28 American with an English major do a coding bootcamp and find an entry level job? I'm sure if he's reasonable intelligent and ambitious he can. There aren't that many h1b's around competing with him, most American jobs aren't h1b jobs.

Why is "do a coding bootcamp" the common refrain from tech workers trying to help non-tech people?

I never understood this either, it's not practical advice for most people. You might as well say "become a plumber", "do electrician school", or even "go be a doctor".

There are a variety of high demand and well paying jobs, but not everyone is interested in them, or even cut out for them.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#129

Post by StanislavPetrov »

war1025 wrote: post #102
michaelbrave wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of American's grew up middle class but aren't anymore, they still think of themselves as such but truly aren't. This is how most Millenials live, they are too broke to have kids, think of themselves as middle class because they grew up that way, even if in reality they aren't.

What do you consider middle class? That term is notoriously ill-defined.

Being able to support yourself and a family with a (single) full time job. That includes owning a home, a car, being able to afford to see a doctor when you have to, going to the occasional movie and taking a vacation once in a while. It includes being able to do all these things without being one illness or one unexpected expense away from being homeless or destitute. It includes the prospect of being able to be able to retire no later than your mid 60s with enough money to maintain a similar (if not the same) standard of living.

~40 years ago this "middle class" standard of living was readily attainable for anyone who diligent, reasonable intelligent, and willing to work hard. Not only that, it was standard for such a lifestyle to be achievable with only one household member working. Now the much more common circumstance is that both adults work, many of the above living conditions are barely achievable, if at all, and many families are one financial hiccup away from disaster.

We can debate over the various reasons for this change in the economic landscape for working people, but there is no debate to be had over the reality of it. The change has been substantive. Its much, much harder for the average working person today to live comfortably and raise a family than it was just a few decades ago.

Re: The student loan crisis is really an underemployment catastrophe

#130

Post by AnimalMuppet »

mamon wrote: post #81
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That used to be called a "liberal education", which meant an education that was appropriate for free men, as opposed to slaves, who would be trained in a trade. Today, that corresponds to pursuing knowledge if you don't need the money . If you do, pursue something that pays. (Pursue as much knowledge as you can work in around the edges, but the main focus has to be on something that pays.)

Ok, so are you saying that there should be no student loans on humanities degrees? Because that's the logical conclusion of what you're saying here. Would it make sense for the government to make a list of fields where they do back up student loans (which would probably be mostly STEM fields)?

I'm talking about students, not institutions or rules. I'm saying that if you're a student, and you need to work for a living, pick your major with some wisdom, no matter how much you want to "seek knowledge".

My position is "Student, protect yourself." I take no position on whether the rules ought to change to protect students. (Perhaps they should, because 18-year-olds probably will get carried away with the romance of "pursuing knowledge" and ignore the way the real world works...)

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