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About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

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Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#221

Post by sobani »

trappist wrote: post #116
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We’re used to Beijing thinking for the long term. When they rotated leaders, this was largely true. With Xi as leader for life, however, the short-term decision making and incompetent bureaucracies that characterises dictatorships are beginning to emerge. Hong Kong shouldn’t have been a problem. Most Hong Kongers, until recently, identified as Chinese moreso than Hong Konger. The transition in 2047 would have been un…

This is the sort of thing predicted by Hans Hermann Hoppe's "Democracy: The God that Failed", the basic premise of which is that short term leaders as found in democracies will try to get as much as they can in the short time they have, whereas lifetime leaders as in monarchies will treat the country more like a property owner would his own property. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy:_The_God_That_Failed

I'd suggest you read https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-f..., especially chapter 2: Are traditional monarchies better places to live?

The most hilarious counterexample is the part about "the dictator of Burma" who was obsessed with the number 'nine'.

The saddest is the time King Leopold was the private owner of Congo.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#222

Post by toyg »

wyuenho wrote: post #215
toyg wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Fair” is a big word. It will likely not be fully public, for a start. China is undoubtedly the worst offender, when it comes to the right to a fair trial; but let’s not pretend “our” countries cannot stack the deck when they feel it’s necessary.

Whenever people bring up human rights abuses in China, that China is a totalitarian country, there are always people bring up that democracy isn't that much better, it's chaotic, there are special interests, there are ways to abuse human rights in a democracy too etc. Here's my take: people living in democratic societies have this powerful weapon called free and fair election. Furthermore, independent judiciary and t…

I completely agree. My aim was simply to point out that Assange's case is so bad, that one really shouldn't use it as a point of superiority of this or that system.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#223

Post by spookieboogie »

confusedhnguy wrote: post #198
spookieboogie wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI, this conversation is very productive and contributes to the greater conversation in a positive way. Thank you for bringing in a unique viewpoint. I hope we all can work better towards the future. > I think so because I have witnessed first hand about how insulting the Chinese is still acceptable [0] even in the PC culture (ppl still ask me if I eat dogs), how biased the mainstream media are, and how the democrat…

Thank you for your kind words, it really warms my heart. Yes, recently there has been an abnormally high amount of news about China on HN and I find most of the comments questionable to say the least. I was so pissed and registered this account to post some comments that are also questionable, so I really should calm down and contribute something that actually helps. Speaking of the Japanese culture, I must admit tha…

The more people having constructive conversations, the better. If at least to attempt to drown out the toxicity. But, if we never succeed, well, at least we made the effort.

The general west hears very little about Japanese government as a rule. So I don't have any reason to believe or disbelieve you. All we get are the culture's good bits, but maybe never see the underbelly. Maybe we'll hear something if there's a controversy, or about the new emperor since it was a novelty, but that's it. So that's very interesting to hear about Chinese-Japanese relations.

Funny enough, if you just skim this article, it seems to prop up Japan as a underdog model state. Reading into it a bit more has more detail, but I know at least several people who just read the bullet points of articles like this, and walk away with whatever they got. I wonder if this is a contribution to the push, but it might be that this is what is in the news right now, and this is what politicians in the west are talking about. (Or at least what the media is reporting)

I think the thing to watch for is next year's US elections. The two parties in the US are somewhat similar on a global scale, but the differences that do exist between them are really important for these relations, and has the potential to improve things, rather than continuing to polarize them. Either way, the US was divided almost in half by population last election, (the majority didn't even vote for the Republican offices, but that's not how the election system works,) so it seems at least say that there is a large number of people that do not hold the same opinions as their government.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#224

Post by Bakary »

csb6 wrote: post #197
Bakary wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it contradictory to consider yourself an arbiter of which opinions hackers should be allowed to have? The idea that the Internet has gone downhill because of increased participation is inherently elitist. In any case, this forum is hosted on a website whose primary goal is to help tech minded people become rich and attain the top of the neo-liberal hierarchy. So much for the cyberpunk fantasy...

No one person is the "arbiter" of what hackers should think. That's ridiculous. But cultural norms exist. The hacker subculture (which also exists) has norms that trend towards making decisions based on merit and skill, while also emphasizing freedom. I don't think it is controversial to associate these attributes with hackers. And it is not controversial to say that these attributes are incompatible with the rule of…

I think your perspective makes sense, and I agree with it for the most part. I just feel that there is an underlying tension at the root of it.

Although hacker culture is mostly as you describe it, I would say that many hackers are also contributing to making the world more monarchical, even if they might not perceive their actions as such. The way tech is changing society and the way tech companies are evolving is pointing the way towards a resurgence of a somewhat feudalistic power structure with capital-owners at the helm supported by a caste of highly educated or skilled professionals, and the remainder of the population in dire economic straits.

That's why the "It's [current year]!" argument rings hollow to me. Most hackers will become either capital owners or part of the higher caste, because they will have skills that make them economically adaptable.[0] The largest part of their work ultimately helps increase inequality since whatever productivity gains are largely captured by the new feudal lords, so to speak. This is hardly an original or profound insight since wages have been stagnating for years and inequality has been skyrocketing. With automation, something identical to absolute monarchy will take place in all but name. A revolution will then be impossible since the Panopticon will have become real, the Third Estate will no longer be needed at all, and means of exchange will eventually become digitized.

You end up with hackers who have the luxury to discuss freedom and the big bad System even as they pauperize most of the population on Earth and contribute to that same system. Not every hacker does of course, but enough do to make it a concern.

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/04/business/economy/producti...

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#225

Post by heptathorp »

powerapple wrote: post #212
markdown wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a small world, whether we like it or not, and letting authoritarian stuff like this extradition treaty to a dictatorship slide A while ago a plane arrived in Fiji half-filled with Chinese police officers. They arrested 77 supposedly Chinese nationals, put them on the plane, and took them back to China. This was all extra-judicial. None of the 77 were arrested, charged, or convicted by the Fijian justice sys…

As a Chinese I think the Chinese police officers are doing a great job.

You have earned 1 social credit point.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#226

Post by anothermouse »

echaozh wrote: post #214
chaz6 wrote: post #169

I strongly believe that the people of Hong Kong should have the right to self-determinism. There is nobody alive who has lived under Chinese rule in Hong Kong. For reference, I am British. I hope that someday Hong Kong can be recognized as a country in its own right.

Why is Northern Ireland still part of Britain?

Mostly because the majority of people living there wish to be remain part of the United Kingdom.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#227

Post by confusedhnguy »

spookieboogie wrote: post #223
confusedhnguy wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for your kind words, it really warms my heart. Yes, recently there has been an abnormally high amount of news about China on HN and I find most of the comments questionable to say the least. I was so pissed and registered this account to post some comments that are also questionable, so I really should calm down and contribute something that actually helps. Speaking of the Japanese culture, I must admit tha…

The more people having constructive conversations, the better. If at least to attempt to drown out the toxicity. But, if we never succeed, well, at least we made the effort. The general west hears very little about Japanese government as a rule. So I don't have any reason to believe or disbelieve you. All we get are the culture's good bits, but maybe never see the underbelly. Maybe we'll hear something if there's a c…

There is no Chinese-Japanese relation, because you cannot leave the US out of the discussion, not after WWII. In fact, what the Japanese think about us is pretty much irrelevant because pro-China [0] government officials die before they can actually do something, at relatively the same time [1] [2].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Japan%E2%80%93So...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinichi_Nishimiya

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadahiro_Matsushita

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#228

Post by anigbrowl »

gbear605 wrote: post #191
anigbrowl wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're wrong about that. It's a lot more obvious in Hong Kong because they're concentrated in a relatively small geographic area.

As a relative portion of the population, no. 2/7 of the US population don’t think that Trump is going to result in their being thrown into essentially concentration camps. He’s horrible, but it won’t result in that.

Looks like we disagree.

Re: About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

#229

Post by csb6 »

Bakary wrote: post #224
csb6 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one person is the "arbiter" of what hackers should think. That's ridiculous. But cultural norms exist. The hacker subculture (which also exists) has norms that trend towards making decisions based on merit and skill, while also emphasizing freedom. I don't think it is controversial to associate these attributes with hackers. And it is not controversial to say that these attributes are incompatible with the rule of…

I think your perspective makes sense, and I agree with it for the most part. I just feel that there is an underlying tension at the root of it. Although hacker culture is mostly as you describe it, I would say that many hackers are also contributing to making the world more monarchical, even if they might not perceive their actions as such. The way tech is changing society and the way tech companies are evolving is p…

Yeah, I absolutely agree that there is tension in the hacker community and that the aims of many self-proclaimed hackers is basically getting rich. I’ve seen a number of “Ask HN” posts essentially asking, “How can I get money fast using tech?”

At one time, I used to think the tech community was largely egalitarian-minded and that it actually believed in making the world a better place through technology. But it seems that a lot of tech entrepreneurs have basically become run-of-the-mill capitalists (if they weren’t from the beginning) who push for privatization of parts of government and oppose any kind of sane regulations on their companies.

Maybe hacker culture is just the juvenile stage in a tech entrepreneur’s quest to buy a big house on West Egg.

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